another "rugged individualism" post that some will not "get"

[tofu]

Many jobs today that now "require" a college degree (which often can be in anything) do so as some kind of standard, but in many cases the degree isn't necessary to perform or learn the job. It's just a barrier & prevents a lot of hard working/smart folks with aptitude from even getting a shot at those jobs. Four year colleges have done a good job of selling (and benefiting) from this as an employment requirement for both private and public employers. The disdain for vocational schools is not hard to miss and yet the need for people with aptitude, training and a work ethic has never been greater in many necessary and relevant jobs like plumbers/welders/electricians etc. Think it doesn't take a lot of skill and smarts to be an auto mechanic these days? Just open up the hood of your hybrid and try to fix it yourself. These are great jobs that pay well, can be very satisfying and yet don't need a 4 year degree. But do HS promote this or guide kids with this kind of aptitude in this direction? Not in my neck of the woods. If you're not on a college track or even post college track you are pretty much dismissed as on the road to nowhere. So lots of kids who could be very happy in vocational schools getting the skills for so called blue collar jobs leading to fulfilling productive lives are instead treading water in four year schools accumulating student loan debt getting degrees in things they don't really want to do because the mantra of you gotta have a college degree to be successful is drummed into them and their parents.

I'm not bashing college and graduate schools (especially since I graduated from both and that knowledge was for me indispensable) but I do think a take away from Joe's story is that you can be successful in life without a college degree. And could we stop all the wealth bashing? Most real wealth in this country is not from inheritance and it's also not accumulated by people who just wanted to be wealthy. Wealth is usually the byproduct of being really successful at something. Being wealthy also doesn't mean you are also materialistic. I think you would be surprised how modestly a lot of really wealthy people live. An awful lot of the McMansions and fancy cars are owned by ne'er do wells (and their banks) and not the wealthy.

Success ≠ money.

by the same token:

Success ≠ being poor

Personally I'll take success & wealthy over success & poor

For the top income quintile, gifts and inheritances amount to 13 percent of household wealth, according to research published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. For the top wealth quintile, they amount to 16 percent. For the “1 percent,” inherited wealth accounts for about 15 percent of holdings. Those numbers have gone down over recent decades — by almost half for the wealthiest Americans. Meanwhile, inherited money makes up 43 percent of the wealth of the lowest income group and 31 percent for the second-lowest.

[Uncle Buck]

FWIW, since the thread is trending this direction, here are my observations as someone who has done a reasonable amount of (non-musical) hiring and firing.

- Generally vacancies generate a lot of applications. Those doing the hiring (individuals or committees) are looking for reasons to throw an application out, not for a reason to keep one in. Human nature being what it is, the initial focus is to try to get the number of applicants down to a small number.
- The honest truth is that for many jobs (pretty much all of the ones for which I've conducted interviews), a particular required degree is one of the easiest ways to reduce an applicant pool down to a more manageable number. Maybe not the most ideal method, but the one most commonly used for the first round of screening. (Remember, "screening" = throwing out as many applications as possible.)
- Lots of individuals with the right degree turn out to be terrible for the job, obviously.
- Some individuals who would be wonderful for the job don't get considered because of a lack of a degree, obviously.
- Past that initial screening, it's all about experience. Not grades, not obviously inflated recommendation letters, but being able to show what you've actually done and accomplished.

Having said that, my general advice is:
- If you're an entrepreneur and want nothing else but to be your own boss, then I'm the wrong person to listen to for advice.
- If your future probably involves applying and interviewing for jobs, don't ever ignore either education or practical experience. You should always be pursuing both together. If you go to college, do whatever you can while there to also be gaining practical experience.

And yeah, Joe's story in the original post in this thread is very cool.

[Mojo workin']

It's about the snowballing of the delay of adulthood by young and post-young Americans.
It's about young (legally) adult Americans behaving as consuming drones, rather than productive citizens.
It's about people trying to decide what to do with themselves while - in the meantime - doing very little.
It's about people living with their parents well into their thirties (or even until their parents' demise).

Q - Why do you give a crap what these people are doing?

Sure is a tuba related thread, I must say.
Would be better placed in the 'stupid gripes' thread.

[bort]

Q - Why do you give a crap what these people are doing?

A- Because they are breeding and making more people like them.

[bort]

Worth reading again.

One thing I've noticed in my part of the business world is that less than half of the time, the CEO/COO of a company does not have an advanced degrees. It doesn't prove or disprove anything, but it's another example of a degree not dictating your future. Formal education gets you in the door, but if you want to succeed you have to be great once you're in there. Most of the time (again, in my field), the top-level executives only have a bachelor's degree, a lot of ambition, and a lot of tolerance for risk and change.

So says the guy in a doctoral program, who doesn't particularly like risk and change.

[Donn]

Q - Why do you give a crap what these people are doing?

We need to dig deeper here, I'm betting these stories hint at some yet unresolved crisis in bloke's situation. I see the heroes have tended to turn away from real serious involvement with music, despite their talents - they needed music to avoid possibly lethal military service (war? a metaphor?), but not for its own sake so much. It's almost like their triumph is supposed to be all the more compelling because they weren't music junkies who would have done it anyway because music is such a gas. Makes me wonder if he's feeling down because he went with the music thing, and wondering if it would have been better not to. Don't give it a second thought, bloke! They'd very likely deeply envy you, up to your neck in various facets of the music world, and anyway each of us has to find his or her own path!

[Biggs]

(often, the "it takes a village" types, etc...)

[tofu]

An interesting take on the value of college for some by the NY Fed.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolrep ... alculates/

For one in four grads, college wasn’t worth it, New York Fed calculates
September 4, 2014, 4:44 PM ET

New York Fed
As noted in a prior Capitol Report post, the New York Fed estimates the economic value of college degree at around $300,000 over the course of the average graduate’s career.

But that doesn’t mean college is a good investment for everyone. The New York Fed’s Jaison Abel and Richard Deitz have crunched more data. The annual wage for the 25th percentile of those with a bachelor’s degree, and that number sits closer to that of those with only a high school diploma, at below $30,000 per year.

That means one in four college grads are making about the same, or less, than the average high school graduate worker — all the while racking up student-loan debt.

“In fact, once the costs of attending college are considered, it is likely that earning a bachelor’s degree would not have been a good investment for many in the lowest 25% of college graduate wage earners,” the report says.

The authors point out though there is no way to be sure that those in the 25th percentile wouldn’t have earned even less had they not gone to college. Still, they note, “this pattern strongly suggests that the economic benefit of a college education is relatively small for at least a quarter of those graduating with a bachelor’s degree.”

– Trey Williams

[Heavy_Metal]

(often, the "it takes a village" types, etc...)

So which one were you?

[Donn]

An interesting take on the value of college for some by the NY Fed.

Or maybe not so interesting. Tuba player college is an obvious example. Do people study the tuba in college hoping to make it into the 3/4 of college graduates who make more than workers without a degree? I don't know what they're thinking, really, since I have only once in my life spoken with such an individual, and the conversation as best as I can recall revolved around having to study with the French horn teacher. But my guess is that their ambitions don't effectively reduce to getting the most return dollars from their education investment. Any major college will offer a long list of degrees that don't promise much economic reward. My degree was Botany.

[ppalan]

I know some folks here don't put much stock in what Robert Reich has to say but he makes some good points in this article. Perhaps some will find them apropos in this discussion.
http://www.alternet.org/robert-reich-co ... better-way
Pete

[tofu]

I know some folks here don't put much stock in what Robert Reich has to say but he makes some good points in this article. Perhaps some will find them apropos in this discussion.
http://www.alternet.org/robert-reich-co ... better-way
Pete

It's an excellent article and he makes some good points. I would have not expected that kind of piece from him.

An interesting take on the value of college for some by the NY Fed.

Or maybe not so interesting. Tuba player college is an obvious example. Do people study the tuba in college hoping to make it into the 3/4 of college graduates who make more than workers without a degree? I don't know what they're thinking, really, since I have only once in my life spoken with such an individual, and the conversation as best as I can recall revolved around having to study with the French horn teacher. But my guess is that their ambitions don't effectively reduce to getting the most return dollars from their education investment. Any major college will offer a long list of degrees that don't promise much economic reward. My degree was Botany.

Well it is an interesting take even if you disagree with it. I do understand the idea that there are people who go on to higher education simply to learn. And 30 plus years ago you could do that because employers were very willing to hire people with liberal arts degrees in things not usable by most employers like Art History. They were looking for bright people capable of learning and they would learn on the job. Today it's hard to find an employer that is willing to still do so. Secondly, it was a heck of a lot cheaper in inflation adjusted dollars to attend college back in the day. People didn't walk out of school with a crushing debt load. A student and a parent have to think about that now. If you walk out the door with 200K in debt it is going to be hard to pay it off with a job that pays 25K a year. I don't think the average 18 year old kid on his own can really grasp how hard it is going to be to pay off a large debt load and the accumulating interest without a good paying job. Sure colleges offer lots of degrees with little economic reward or even employment prospects. They should come with a warning like on a cigarette package that for the rest of your life you will pay for that choice and may end up living a hand to mouth existence and not to expect me the taxpayer to bail you out from your choices. Reich also touches on a very real item which are all these graduates with degrees they can't get jobs in and end up in jobs they are overqualified for, unsatisfied with and end up extremely disillusioned.

[KevinMadden]

After donning a flame proof suit I think I will re-post Bloke's story with

the opinion of a current Degree seller-buying delaying adulthood, self esteem having, no money having youth

This is another one of my "work ethic/the snowballing delaying of adulthood/self-esteem vs. achievement/having-no-money-is-a-sucky-excuse" themed posts (which some seem to dislike intensely).

Recently, I spotlighted a high school colleague of mine who played(s) the tuba...Well, this is a "tuba" discussion list... This time, I'd like to spotlight another of our group of high school friends...a trombone player.

Again, I went to a "white trash" high school where very few houses surrounding it (for many-many city blocks) had more than two bedrooms and more than one bathroom. The person on the right grew up in such a house. He was the youngest of four, the only son, and slept in an added-on breezeway behind the (one car) garage. (Most houses in the neighborhood did not have garages.) The house was a bit nicer than most, because his dad actually built the house himself...stick-by-stick/brick-by-brick...(this house: http://oi59.tinypic.com/30moc5t.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank His father was a postman (A noble usually government-ish position that will provide much better support to a family in terms of medical insurance and likely a pension for the father than most jobs out there today) , and (because that wasn't quite enough money to pay the bills) his mom worked in the record (vinyl...l.p.'s) department at Sears (At the time of the occurrence of this story I would assume more households than now were single-earner, both parents having to work to make ends meet is not at all extraordinary today even in much more affluent areas and neighborhoods ).

From the 9th grade through the 11th grade, he worked at an ice cream cone place (meaning he was able to find, and get hired in a job that worked with his student schedule, something that is becoming rare and rarer, regardless of the individual's work ethic) (this place, which still exists: http://bestmemphisburger.com/wp-content ... 07/SK1.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank ) most afternoons for 99 cents/hour. After a couple of years, he had enough money (In an era when there was no internet or cellphones for a teenager to need to pay for, and in an area of the city that for all it's "white-trashness" probably did not require him to have a car it would be considerably easier to save every penny of the $.99/hour) to buy a King 3B trombone with an F-attachment (no such thing as "discount" pricing back then).(I have a King 3b with and F attachment, it's a wonderful horn that accomplishes most of what I need it for. If what I need an instrument for is to pursue a career in music please tell me what music shops offer such discount pricing that I could buy a current horn du jour on $8/hour (inflation adjusted $.99/hour) ) He spent most of his time studying (academics) and practicing the trombone. Tragically, a high school friends' (much older..a truck driver who died in a crash in a bag fog) brother died, and he was able to sell the 3B and buy the deceased friends' brother's Conn 88H.(Indeed tragic, but a series of events completely unrelated to your friend's work-ethic and rugged individualism) Practicing and studying continued.

He graduated salutatorian of his class (of c. 350) with all A's and quite a few A.P. classes (perhaps one less A.P. class than the valedictorian). He entered (the local) university as a music major, but - after a semester - realized he was wasting his time.(why was this? was it an issue with the local college? did graduating salutatorian not open up opportunities at better schools? A semester in college now can cost $10-20K that's a lot of wasted money to walk away from.) Wishing to be married to his girlfriend and wishing to not be sent to Vietnam (but wishing to not hide out working on a silly degree (If this young 18 year old was able to recognize that his degree was silly almost immediately it would appear that he hadn't been told that college is the only path to succeed in life every day from day one of grade one) simply for a "deferment"), at age 18 he auditioned into the Continental Army Band (Norfolk, Virginia),(Enlisting in the armed forces as a musician is also increasingly becoming a career path that is actually hard to get and not just something any 18 year old can go out and do) married his girlfriend, and ditched college.

Today, he's not playing trombone in the Army anymore, but is a power plant manager in Alaska (no...no "degree" in any of that either...just studied, got a job in his mid-20's as a control room operator (a job that today would probably open to a room with a few hundred applicants with much better resumes than your friend ), and continued to observe, study and learn). His salary, needless to say, is well up in the XXX,XXX range. ( So he's one of the lucky ones who has held a job for a long time and managed to not get laid-off or downsized, it would be nice if more companies did actually reward their employees work performance) He still plays the trombone. A few years ago, he played the Mozart bassoon concert with his local orchestra on his euphonium.

I'm not intending to say that Bloke's friend isn't a hard worker, or isn't a good person, I'm sure he is. However, plucky work-ethic and rugged individualism does not necessarily generate success always. The seeming 'laziness' or 'delaying of adulthood' is not always the fault of the kid.

[Biggs]

The real kicker in this story, which everyone seems to be overlooking, is that even though this guy is smart, hard-working, well-liked, and everything else puppies and rainbows, his job is contingent on him living in fk'n Alaska.

I don't say this to belittle Alaska as I also live in a state that is cold, desolate, and devoid of institutions traditionally labeled "culture" . But the cost of living in Alaska is much steeper than in my flyover state, not to mention that Alaska receives $1.84 in federal benefits for every $1 paid in federal taxes, which I would think is the kind of thing that would upset people who stay up at night worrying about government spending.

I'd love to visit Alaska - it looks beautiful and offers experience my state never could - but LIVE there? I don't care how much that power plant pays; I can earn less and afford a higher quality of life in virtually every other part of the country. A side effect a low cost of living also means I can more readily save the money necessary to travel someplace exciting (like, say, Alaska) or travel to see my friends and relatives (hell, even get some "culture") by virtue of being within 4 hours of a meaningful airport.

For reference: http://consumerist.com/2014/08/19/how-f ... shows-you/
and: http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/u ... x-dollars/

[Biggs]

He can work anywhere he wants to. He's worked (in the same industry) in Tennessee, Arkansas, Utah, Montana, and is vested (pension) in a couple of companies.

He's having an absolute ball living up there, and has no interest in returning to the adjacent 48...except to visit relatives and see he grandkids.

Anyone who would really choose to live in a typical 21st Century American city must be crossed-eyed and walking around with a tree truck up their *** and/or have no respect for their spouse, their children, and themselves.

This **** occurred on Saturday two miles from where my store was formerly located in Memphis...in a "good" part of town:

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/crime/2 ... /15262309/

TN, AR, UT, and MT have plenty of 'wide-open space' (a nice draw of Alaska, I'm sure) but groceries sure are cheaper. Different strokes and all that, but living in Alaska is at least as crazy as living in a typical 21st Century American city.

[Biggs]

...based on Alaska "reality TV shows" (contrived/fake situations), I suppose.

No, based on the cost of groceries, gasoline, etc.

[Mojo workin']

Anyone who would really choose to live in a typical 21st Century American city must be crossed-eyed and walking around with a tree truck up their *** and/or have no respect for their spouse, their children, and themselves.

This **** occurred on Saturday two miles from where my store was formerly located in Memphis...in a "good" part of town:

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/crime/2 ... /15262309/

You guys have some real (literal) knuckle-draggers running around down there. And using cellphone cameras, too.

Didn't mean to carjack the thread, yo.

[tofu]

The real kicker in this story, which everyone seems to be overlooking, is that even though this guy is smart, hard-working, well-liked, and everything else puppies and rainbows, his job is contingent on him living in fk'n Alaska.

I don't say this to belittle Alaska as I also live in a state that is cold, desolate, and devoid of institutions traditionally labeled "culture" . But the cost of living in Alaska is much steeper than in my flyover state, not to mention that Alaska receives $1.84 in federal benefits for every $1 paid in federal taxes, which I would think is the kind of thing that would upset people who stay up at night worrying about government spending.

I'd love to visit Alaska - it looks beautiful and offers experience my state never could - but LIVE there? I don't care how much that power plant pays; I can earn less and afford a higher quality of life in virtually every other part of the country. A side effect a low cost of living also means I can more readily save the money necessary to travel someplace exciting (like, say, Alaska) or travel to see my friends and relatives (hell, even get some "culture") by virtue of being within 4 hours of a meaningful airport.

For reference: http://consumerist.com/2014/08/19/how-f ... shows-you/
and: http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/u ... x-dollars/

Every resident of Alaska gets a Alaska Permanent Fund check every year which varies but is usually a thousand to two thousand dollars its from the oil production. If he is in the Anchorage metropolitan area, which combines Anchorage with the neighboring Matanuska-Susitna Borough, it has a population of around 385,000 people. So we're talking of a city in the range of St. Louis. I would think you could find many cultural activities with a population of that size. It accounts for about 40 percent of the total resident of the state. Average daytime summer temperatures range from approximately 55 to 78 °F and average daytime winter temperatures are about 5 to 30 °F . Anchorage has a frost-free growing season that averages slightly over 101 days. Average January low and high temperatures are 11 to 23 °F with an average winter snowfall of 75.5 inches. Honestly that sounds a lot like Chicago weather. I've got friends who live part of the year up in Juneau. He is the harbor master and she is an air ambulance (helicopter RN). They spend the summer in Juneau (which is a quite nice time of year there) and the winter in Hawaii (which I hear is also a quite nice time of year there) where they have a commercial fishing vessel. Not a bad life.

One last thing - Anchorage has been named by Kiplinger as the most tax-friendly city in the United States. At the end of the day if you get to keep more of what you make it mutes your how far your dollar goes theory. Plus you need to add in the annual per capita state stipend. So you, your wife and each of your kids - gets a nice annual check - just for living there.My state will never ever send me a check - they just raise taxes and find new taxes. Living in Alaska doesn't sound so bad to me especially since I enjoy many of the outdoor activities it offers.

[Biggs]

The real kicker in this story, which everyone seems to be overlooking, is that even though this guy is smart, hard-working, well-liked, and everything else puppies and rainbows, his job is contingent on him living in fk'n Alaska.

I don't say this to belittle Alaska as I also live in a state that is cold, desolate, and devoid of institutions traditionally labeled "culture" . But the cost of living in Alaska is much steeper than in my flyover state, not to mention that Alaska receives $1.84 in federal benefits for every $1 paid in federal taxes, which I would think is the kind of thing that would upset people who stay up at night worrying about government spending.

I'd love to visit Alaska - it looks beautiful and offers experience my state never could - but LIVE there? I don't care how much that power plant pays; I can earn less and afford a higher quality of life in virtually every other part of the country. A side effect a low cost of living also means I can more readily save the money necessary to travel someplace exciting (like, say, Alaska) or travel to see my friends and relatives (hell, even get some "culture") by virtue of being within 4 hours of a meaningful airport.

For reference: http://consumerist.com/2014/08/19/how-f ... shows-you/
and: http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/u ... x-dollars/

Every resident of Alaska gets a Alaska Permanent Fund check every year which varies but is usually a thousand to two thousand dollars its from the oil production. If he is in the Anchorage metropolitan area, which combines Anchorage with the neighboring Matanuska-Susitna Borough, it has a population of around 385,000 people. So we're talking of a city in the range of St. Louis. I would think you could find many cultural activities with a population of that size. It accounts for about 40 percent of the total resident of the state.

I live in, per the US Census bureau, a metropolitan area of 150,000. This is smaller than Anchorage, but in a geographically smaller state with more people - 6 electoral votes instead of 3 - and with a much denser population (for example, I'm also 15 minutes from a metropolitan area of 250,000). I'm sure Anchorage is packed with cultural opportunities, just as I'm sure my town is packed with cultural opportunities and would defend it as such to residents of the coasts (hence my eye roll - sorry for being unclear) who would note the lack of things like

major art and music institutions
good colleges
airports with more than half a dozen options for direct flights
first-run movies/touring shows
pro sports teams
trendy restaurants/chefs
etc.

I'm sure plenty of people have a very high quality of life in Alaska, just as they do in my neck of the woods, but the fact remains that while those places don't have the problems of major cities, they also don't have the benefits. If I want to enjoy the benefits of a major city (hearing the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, for example), I can drive four hours and do so. Driving four hours from Anchorage doesn't have the same results.

Average daytime summer temperatures range from approximately 55 to 78 °F and average daytime winter temperatures are about 5 to 30 °F . Anchorage has a frost-free growing season that averages slightly over 101 days. Average January low and high temperatures are 11 to 23 °F with an average winter snowfall of 75.5 inches. Honestly that sounds a lot like Chicago weather. I've got friends who live part of the year up in Juneau. He is the harbor master and she is an air ambulance (helicopter RN). They spend the summer in Juneau (which is a quite nice time of year there) and the winter in Hawaii (which I hear is also a quite nice time of year there) where they have a commercial fishing vessel. Not a bad life.

What a perfect comparison to a place with terrible weather! I say that as a former resident (about 5 years) of the Chicago 'burbs. My parents still live there, so when I go to visit them for Christmas, I still get that horrible wind chill, unplowed streets, woolly mammoth stampedes, etc. Sure, there are a lot of great things about life in Chicago and in Flyover Central, but the weather is not one of them. I don't have any burning desire to move in with bloke, but I'd trade weather with him in a heartbeat.

Even your friend with a great Alaskan life agrees - winter sucks! It sucks so much it literally makes him want to leave Alaska because other weather is so much nicer! And, if I could afford a second home in Hawaii, Texas, Florida, etc., I don't think I'd want to spend quite as much time shoveling snow either. Alaskan summers sound great, but I think you'll agree they're relatively short. Shorter, even, than those Chicago summers.

One last thing - Anchorage has been named by Kiplinger as the most tax-friendly city in the United States. At the end of the day if you get to keep more of what you make it mutes your how far your dollar goes theory. Plus you need to add in the annual per capita state stipend. So you, your wife and each of your kids - gets a nice annual check - just for living there.My state will never ever send me a check - they just raise taxes and find new taxes. Living in Alaska doesn't sound so bad to me especially since I enjoy many of the outdoor activities it offers.

True dat. But, as I said, Alaska is very tax-unfriendly on the rest of us, as the state receives $1.84 in federal benefits for every $1.00 paid in federal taxes - a pretty generous return, funded in part by contiguous-dwelling chumps like you and me. I guess the Alaskan legislature doesn't have much impetus to raise taxes, since we're paying to sustain their high quality of life that I've heard so much about.

Again, Alaska looks beautiful. My wife and I are saving to honeymoon there and do some hiking and fishing. But I don't think I'll do any house shopping.