Sousaphones vs. Marching "Contra" Tubas

[Phoxtubist]

Classic wrap-arounds vs. the things you carry in drum corps that make your arms buff and causes years of back problems. Discuss.

[opus37]

I just started marching again after 45 years. I carry a small helicon which is very manageable for me. I can't imagine playing or considering marching with a contra. With a Contra, your arms are above your heart, you can't see very well, it's hard to maintain balance and it is uncomfortable. If you are still young and foolish, maybe it's OK, but for the long haul, a Sousa or Helicon is the way to go.

[toobagrowl]

I've always used sousas for marching. I've only tooted on one contra; it played well, but not near as comfy/ergonomic as a sousa.

The modern-day top corps sound great on the BBb marching tubas (contras) though......IMO, better than the GG contras they used to use....

But I still think a good sousa can sound as good as the marching tubas/contras (different sound, but still good), and be more comfortable for the player. Matter of personal preference.

[bort]

I'm not quite sure what the question is, but I can think of very few reasons why I would ever want to pick up a contra again. There's a time and a place for them... just not for me.

BTW, why on earth doesn't Kanstul make a Sousaphone?

[KevinMadden]

Well this thread has me remembering my time with this beast:

(http://www.kanstul.com/detail.php?pass_ ... ment=Bugle)
Contra Grande indeed!!
It's been 10 years since I last marched, and I think that was enough of that.

[Three Valves]

Any Hi-stepping, Spatz-wearing, Show Band wouldn't be caught dead with one of those awful things.

Sousa-baby!!

[michael_glenn]

I think contras sound better (more like a tuba), but sousaphones sure are easier to deal with.

[lowpitchmoravian]

I throw all my cards in with Jacksonville state marching band who march with 20 or 30, 2XJ's -------Keeps you in shape. ------Be a MAN-----lol

[lowpitchmoravian]

Never, Kiltie Tuba and at my little size , would be quite comical------Have always wondered why Helicons ( lighter than Sousa's ) didn't catch in USA more ---------Guess JP Sousa had the power of persuasion in getting the sound up and above.

[Donn]

Probably too many people had gotten conked by a helicon bell by then, is why they were starting to be looked on with disfavor.

[iiipopes]

I can't stand the sound of contras: mean, blatty and piercing. That may be the idea: projection. But at the expense of everything else?

I will take a sousaphone all day, any day over all of them. The good ones have projection without blat. Even the ones that blat from thin metal, like Jupiters, will work with something like a Schilke H-II to get the edge off. If I didn't already have my tuba, I would consider modifying a souzy to have both raincatcher and forward bells for use in all concert settings. I tried that with my 186 having both upright and recording bells, but I could never get used to the recording bell pulling everything in my shoulders.

Those who don't think that marching with a souzy, even a fiberglass one, will get you in shape, consider this: when I was in high school, marching with an old (even then) King 'glass souzy, and the coach did the yearly required physical fitness evaluations on all the guys, the football players, especially the linemen, were quite miffed that I could leg press more than they could. They worked out everyday on the machines and did their drills, "all" I did was "run around on the field" a few times.

For those who have had the pleasure of playing something like a Grand, 38 or 40K, etc., even a 20K, with the proper mouthpiece, I will put the foundational tone up against any tuba, any day, especially if the upper loop of the first valve circuit is converted to a slide to "ride throttle" on the intonation.

And after playing and owning and divesting of all sorts of instruments, including a dozen or so souzys (school, institution, owned, etc.) in the last 40 years, I am putting my money where my mouth is. See my thread about getting a Bundy/Selmer Signet refurbed as my main outdoor instrument.

Finally, remember that in the "golden age," with directional horn physical recording, the double basses were too diffuse for recording (of course they were - a design to fill a hall is not a design that projects with "core" for audio horn recording - but I digress), and an upright tuba died in the ceiling of the primitive recording studios. That's why it is called a "recording" bell, and folks like "Chief" Kuhn used a souzy to play the double bass parts on the shellac records and were experts at blend and balance.

A souzy also obviates any situation where a person may be left-eye dominant instead of right-eye dominant, with the bell up and out of the way for full field of vision.

Yes, I'll take a souzy over a contra any day.

1924-Basses-John-Chief-Kuhn-w.jpg

[iiipopes]

Probably too many people had gotten conked by a helicon bell by then, is why they were starting to be looked on with disfavor.

Actually, it was because it was too directional. See the threads on Sousa having J. W. Pepper make the first souzy as a raincatcher, like an upright tuba bell, to "disperse" the tone "over" the band.

[Donn]

Probably too many people had gotten conked by a helicon bell by then, is why they were starting to be looked on with disfavor.

Actually, it was because it was too directional. See the threads on Sousa having J. W. Pepper make the first souzy as a raincatcher, like an upright tuba bell, to "disperse" the tone "over" the band.

I've seen that stuff, but it doesn't really add up. Pepper got Sousa to go along with having his name on the sousaphone, but "today we all play forward facing sousa-phones, because Sousa loved the straight-up version?" That kind of logic isn't a satisfactory account of where the helicon went.

It may indeed have been too directional - I might buy that. The sousaphone's extra large bell flare mitigates that problem, but that might have been a rather awkward modification on a helicon, I've never seen one like that. Same with "contra" - the sousaphone is arguably the one portable format that supports an extra-large bell flare.

[toobagrowl]

I can't stand the sound of contras: mean, blatty and piercing. That may be the idea: projection. But at the expense of everything else?

I will take a sousaphone all day, any day over all of them. The good ones have projection without blat. Even the ones that blat from thin metal, like Jupiters, will work with something like a Schilke H-II to get the edge off.

I used to have the same mindset on contras........until I stumbled onto the top modern DCI Corps. They use nice BBb marching tubas (contras), and imo, sound arguably better than most sousas I've heard. Some good examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4l7pW6oOQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0wosVCHfp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=942smRE ... 42smREXNvQ


Don't get me wrong, I like sousas too. But I've heard at least as many nasty blatty sounds from sousas as I've heard from contras. Mostly by high schoolers. And just as I can't stand blatting, I'm also not too fond of the too-dark/flabby "foghorn" sound on some large sousas. I like a deep, rich sound, but with some overtones, and a little bite/edge here and there.

The larger 4/4 and 5/4 marching tubas (modern contras) AND sousas can sound great in the right hands

[Three Valves]

OK, ok.

Even when the sound is decent, I can't get over the whole Corp Style vibe...

Show-Style, Baby!!

[tbn.al]

Check out definition number 22 on page 2.

project_Page_1.jpg

project_Page_2.jpg

[Mark]

Probably too many people had gotten conked by a helicon bell by then, is why they were starting to be looked on with disfavor.

Actually, it was because it was too directional. See the threads on Sousa having J. W. Pepper make the first souzy as a raincatcher, like an upright tuba bell, to "disperse" the tone "over" the band.

If we are talking about marching outside, an upward facing bell will not disperse the tone over the band. It will disperse the tone into the heavens, never to be heard again.

[iiipopes]

You are all missing the point of the raincatcher thing: it was never meant for marching. It was for Sousa's concert band. Everybody is looking at it from this side of things backward instead of from the previous state of the art looking forward. Sousa wanted a helicon-style low brass instrument with better dispersion over the top of the concert band. The transcriptions of his actual words in interviews setting forth this purpose are scattered about the www; it should be easy to Google. It was after marching with it that it was observed the sound was not good for marching, so Conn made the bell forward version.

SousaBandAtChautauquaNY1925.jpg