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Lew wrote:The difference is murderers are hurting someone else, drug abusers are hurting themselves.

If you think that a drug abuser is only hurting him- or herself, then you have not had much experience with drug abusers.

Some very thoughtful comments my fellow tubenet friends. So much to think about...

This country was founded by some of the best hemp farmers the world has ever seen. George Washington wrote in his journal about how pleased he was with Martha that she would save the biggest and finest buds for his return to the plantation. I wonder what he was planning on doing with those?

A few of you mentioned that alcohol is a "bad" thing. I would look a little deeper into that. The Bible clearly states that alcohol is a gift from God, and is to be used. But what it also stated is that it should be used in moderation. We have all heard the studies that say that a little red wine or dark beer is good for our health. It is drunkenness that is forbidden by our Father in heaven, not the use of alcohol. Water to wine was Jesus' first recorded miracle in John. We remember Him by drinking wine at Passover. For those who study the Bible regulary, a regular drink from time to time is a blessing, and is as natural as a good steak. Of course, eating two, three, or four good steaks can get one into trouble, so we must be aware of our tolerances and stay away from drunkeness at all costs. It can be mighty dangerous if abused.

Now. I have thought long and hard about the criminalization of drugs in America, and the rest of the world, where most of earth’s countries have followed suit. Before there were drug laws there weren't drive by shootings, crack babies, rock star heroin overdoses, the list goes on and on...

So why is it that they are illegal, and our prisons are so full of drug violators? Money and power in government is your answer, because as many of you know, the great deceiver corrupts all governments of this world, including our own. Satan the devil, that serpent of old is the REAL inventor of the black market in this world.

These corrupt governments depend on the black market to remain afloat, and I assume that is why drugs remain, and always will remain illegal, as long as human beings are in charge. So much industry benefits from drugs being illegal, and those funds pour directly into the politician’s pocketbooks. The funds also go to fund illegal government activity like secret operations worldwide and the alien conspiracy. The alcohol, paper, pharmaceutical, oil, soft drink, coffee, tobacco, automotive, healthcare, etc… benefit from drugs being illegal. There is no end in sight for the lies that have been filling the ears of Americans and the world regarding the “drugâ€

"One candidate has a plan to do the unthinkable....to legalize drugs. Senator John Doe wants to make it easier for himself to obtain dangerous drugs and at the same time put hundreds of thousands of dangerous criminals back on the streets. Studies show that 99% of rape, robbery and violent crime is perpetrated by people involved with drugs, so send a message that you want these dangerous criminals behind bars where they belong, not out on the street raping, murdering, and stealing."
:cut to scene of cute little kids crossing the street while filthy, menacing men glare at them from beside a fence:


-Eric

Marijuana's an odd case, though.

From what I've understood, it wasn't made illegal to promote general health. The polymer industry was just getting underway, and companies with a lot at stake decided to play a little dirty and get rid of the only real competition they had, which was hemp.

There are "industrial" varieties of the marijuana plant that have insignificant amounts of THC, which means that smoking it wouldn't make you any more high than smoking lawn clippings. But, the plant fibers can still be made into very good fabric and paper, and are much more environmentally friendly than wood pulp, oil, and even more efficient than cotton.

Rather than make the distinction between industrial hemp and intoxicating marijuana, they decided to criminalize the whole range of plants, which made room in the market for Dacron, polyester, nylon, and every other synthetic fabric.

http://www.openflix.com/movie/reefer-madness.html
http://www.killermovies.com/dvd/do.php/ ... YTQ__.html
http://www.1000misspenthours.com/review ... adness.htm
Especially:
http://www.onlinepot.org/legal/untold1.htm

I really don't think that marijuana should be categorized as if it were any other mind-altering drug. Many studies indicate that it's less addictive & dangerous than alcohol and nearly every other illegal drug. And, as an industrial plant, it's a better option than many modern materials.

Lew wrote:Absolutely on target. I wonder when our self righteous right wing politicians will realize the harm they are doing by "protecting" us from drugs? In the oppressive political climate in the country today it will be a long time before your very reasonable and accurate perspective can even be discussed in any legislative body.

Or, when will the left wing zealots (to trade insults just as well) stop "protecting" everyone from the evil cigarette when a single marijuana joint (the drug of choice for those pushing legalization because it is so 'harmless') contains more tar, more nicotine and more carcinogens than 3 or more cigarettes? You want to tell me that the secondhand smoke will be any better? How about protecting the ones around you from getting a contact high? Yes, the right wing tends to do stupid stuff, but is the left wing any better?

Also, want to talk about oppressive societies? Try a few of the current ones out there China, for example.

If you want to see what drugs will do to a society, go to Amsterdam, there is more petty thievery, more con games, more violence than anywhere else in Europe, even the Czech Republic. Not to mention the dog crap everywhere and the aweful smell of the place, Rome smelled better.

Rant ended,
Sou

Captain Sousie wrote:If you want to see what drugs will do to a society, go to Amsterdam, there is more petty thievery, more con games, more violence than anywhere else in Europe, even the Czech Republic.

Dunno about that.. could you cite some sources on that info? Here are some statistics with cited sources:

Murder rate as a percentage of population (in 1996):
1.8 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;
8.22 in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Bureau of Statistics; White House Office of National Drug Control Policy)

Incarceration rate as a percentage of population (1997):
73 per 100,000 in the Netherlands;
645 per 100,000 in the U.S.
(Sources: Netherlands Ministry of Justice; White House Office of National Drug Control Strategy)

Crime-related deaths as a percentage of population:
1.2 per 100,000 in the Netherlands (1994);
8.2 per 100,000 in the U.S. (1995).
(Sources: World Health Organization; Uniform Crime Reports, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation)

http://www.drugtext.org/count/nl1.html f.w.i.w.

My only source so far is myself and many other travelers that I have met and talked to. But I'll play it your way.

If you notice however, I did not list murder and death among the problems in Amsterdam specifically. Your sources also only listed the US and not anything of Europe outside of the Netherlands. As my comments were restricted to Europe, and not the US, it seems that we are both plagued with misinformation.

For a little bit of crime rate info from as far back as 1995, try this diagram. With sources.

Crimes per 100 respondents 1995 (Source: International Crime Victims Survey)


and now for the increase over the previous 45 years



These are from the Crime Prevention Information & News article on the website for the University of West England. Here http://environment.uwe.ac.uk/commsafe/eusor3.asp

Now that you have relevant information on the topic, maybe we can both look for current info hmmm?

By the way, the incarceraion rate means precisely diddley. The US police tends to enforce rather stringently (not that it is a bad thing.) and the Amsterdam cops are pretty easy going. No crime that occured in Amsterdam that I have ever personally discussed has resulted in prison time of any kind. Not even the drunk tank. Also, think about the fact that the crime rates in the netherlands are exclusive of many kinds of drug related offenses (due to some drugs being completely legal) that the other countries must report.

Sou

By the way, have you ever been to Amsterdam?

Leland wrote:There are "industrial" varieties of the marijuana plant that have insignificant amounts of THC, which means that smoking it wouldn't make you any more high than smoking lawn clippings. But, the plant fibers can still be made into very good fabric and paper, and are much more environmentally friendly than wood pulp, oil, and even more efficient than cotton..

Most one-time midwestern farm boys over 40 probably remember smokin' the stuff that used to grow in roadside ditches. Just once was enough to get you sick enough to never want to try it again.

During WWII, the gummint encouraged the growing of hemp for rope for the wartime effort. And there was plenty of escaped stuff. But no one in their right mind (other than silly schoolboys) would think of smoking that stuff, any more than you'd want to smoke your old gym socks. But it's still illegal to smoke the stuff, even if you pick it out of a roadside ditch.

...and there are still those who come to the Northwest in the autumn to pick the "funny" mushrooms. I think the local law enforcement agencies just hope they get the right ones--liver transplants are expensive.

Switzerland has a state-run program to supply heroin to the really hard-core addicts. It keeps the spread of HIV and property and sex crimes down. Most heroin addicts are quite functional on a maintenance dose, and can hold regular jobs.

Captain Sousie wrote: If you notice however, I did not list murder and death among the problems in Amsterdam specifically. Your sources also only listed the US and not anything of Europe outside of the Netherlands. As my comments were restricted to Europe, and not the US, it seems that we are both plagued with misinformation.

[...]

Now that you have relevant information on the topic, maybe we can both look for current info hmmm?

I'm not quite sure how comparing Crime in the Netherlands to the rest of Europe is more relevant than comparing it the United States.. since that's what is being discussed(i'm not calling your info irrelevant either, it most certainly is).

By the way, have you ever been to Amsterdam?

Every November I take a trip to Amsterdam with a buddy of mine and whichever friends we each get to come along(he lives in Florida and I live in New York, going to europe makes for a MUCH more interesting reunion). I've lived in and frequent a dozen U.S. cities and I'd say Amsterdam in almost all respects is on par with any large american tourist town. It's got it's bad areas, but you only come across them if you're looking for prostitutes.

Another interesting statistic... the average height in Amsterdam for men has grown SIX INCHES and for women FOUR INCHES in the last 40 years.




....coincidence? You decide!

Doc wrote: Maybe some of you young folk don't realize how conservative Dem. President John F. Kennedy was. Certainly a more conservative philosophically than today's conservatives. Do a little research on his policies/philosophies and tell me what you think. If the Dem Party was like that of Kennedy or Truman, conservatives would still be in the minority.

...and Doc, remember how liberal Nixon was. At various times, Nixon campaigned for a federally guaranteed income (working or not), socialized medicine and honest government .

It's pointless to assign labels to the political parties, since they seem to be able to change their stripes at will.

bloke wrote:

Typical mainstream news media version of this wrote:...men has grown SIX INCHES...for women....but you only come..if you're looking for prostitutes.

bloke.. to me, at 3am, after getting back from a last-minute-and-very-busy-two-day-trip-out-of-the-country(but not far away), in my current state of mind, in the spirit of this thread, you are officially the funniest man in the room.

I was going to bite my tounge (or my fingers) in this situation, but really I cannot resist.

THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE!!

ITS NOT A RELIGIOUS ISSUE!!

Thats the way I see it. Too many people can look at an issue like this and say "someone who supports legalization of pot (as an example) is a devil worshipping demon hippy liberal." While in fact the personal reasons for supporting legalization of a certain controlled substance may be very different from the stereotypical personality.

This is an issue of individual choice and individual thought. Like abortion, it becomes an issue of politics and religion because people want to FORCE others to think the way they think and legislate change in the world, while real change only comes with a change of heart and opinion. This is why education is so important. Tell kids about the dangers of pot, the dangers of alcohol, etc., and let them make their own decisions. Politicians make this a political issue because something like this is so devisive. Taking sides on a debate like this automatically associates oneself with a political party, and grabs votes. Your precious "bloodless conservative" politician or "commie liberal" politician probably believes in only about half of what he says.

As has been said, gangs largely derive economic support from the drug trade in some way shape or form. Gangs will not disappear if we legalize a drug or drugs. Killing will not stop. What will stop is an ineffectual government trying to stop up holes in a very leaky dike with way too few fingers. I am referring largely to the legalization of pot because it is one of the more benign drugs on the list of illegal substances, and the most likely to be legalized within my lifetime. And let me tell you, legalizing pot will probably make it only marginally more available than it is now. Anyone with any ambition at all can purchase pot quite readily in this day and age. Wake up people. Its illegal, but so easy to get.

Captain Sousie, you are wrong. Marijuana does not contain nicotine. The chemical in pot that gets a person high is THC. Nicotine is a stimulant. THC is not. Nicotine is physically addictive. THC is not. "Contact High" is very hard to experience, and likely a figment of people's imagination. As far as carcinogens is concerned, Tobacco wins hands down. Caffeine even has a larger affect on your body than pot does! And its fantastically addictive as you probably already know. Tar levels are quite a bit higher in pot, so you werent completely off the mark. Look what I found on the handy dandy internet: http://www.cannabis.com/faqs/ Although it is skewed to the perspective of the pothead, it does dispell a lot of myths about the drug. The problems you have in finding the truth in this issue is the fact that there are a lot of crazies on both sides of the issue.

Captain Sousie wrote:...... Also, think about the fact that the crime rates in the netherlands are exclusive of many kinds of drug related offenses (due to some drugs being completely legal) that the other countries must report.

Sou

By the way, have you ever been to Amsterdam?

I'm not going to enter the discussion too much, I can't express myself in English well enough.
I do want to debunk one myth:
There are no legal drugs in the Netherlands.
Use of cannabis is condoned.
Posession of a small amount for personal use is condoned.
Sale of the stuff in controlled shops ("coffee shops") is condoned.

Any posession or trade of amounts more than an ounce or so, smuggling, growing etc. etc. is illegal and is prosecuted just like anywhere else.

So, those large numbers of crimes related to drugs which are not reported according to you are all those dangerous criminals who are in posession of an ounce of pot or less.

So, if you talk about facts, get them straight first.

edit: stupid proofreading error

I wonder how pot compares to tobacco, when smoked the same way?
Do the tar studies consider filtered, unfiltered, or pipes for either?

I certain that pot has medical uses. Sure it's not completely safe, but neither are most drugs (Rx or not, look at the stuff used in chemo) It's been said that all medicines contain some amount of poison. I wonder what would happen if you took a 20/30 asprin?

Make it like alcohol and tobacco. Age of majority for use/possesion, and inforce the laws when others are at risk. Most states allow some private alcohol production, and I thinjk tobacco is the same, so pot would follow suit.

As far as DUI/DWI goes, lot's of pprescription meds have warnings about impairment. My wife cannot drive after taking pseudoephedrine. You think she was drunk. A lot of cough syrups can have a similar affect in larger doses. I knew the type to drink them a bottle at a time for the "buzz" they got.

It's time for the government to stop being nannies, and for people tio take responsibility for what they do. I I can drink a bottle of wine, and not harm others, I could surely smoke a joint, and be just as responsible.

It's interesting what happens when you post a new topic on Friday and return to it on Monday. The expected range of comments, many of them thought out and some knee-jerk.

Two:
1. Whoever said I was wrong about writing that if you buy drugs you particpate in the murders etc involved to get them, using an example of Canadian pot, yeah you could be right, if I buy Canadian pot. I guess I was referred to the other drugs.

2. As for contact high....it does exist. It probably is rare. On two occasions I have been exposed to MJ smoke and spent a considerable portion of the night worshiping the procelain throne, and am certain the exposure was the cause. I appear to have an allergy to it. So even though I advocate legalization for the reasons stated, it would make my life a LOT more difficult if I could not find a way to not be exposed to second-hand MJ smoke.

MA

these folks could be given a good "home" with really good security, air-conditioning, heat, their own bed, and three squares a day.

Maybe I watch too much t.v., but I would guess security is no better in jail than it is where they are now. At least you can run on the streets other than that, you are correct.

Lots of high emotion here.

Time for a burger break:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05124/498674.stm

Chuck(G) wrote:Lots of high emotion here.

Time for a burger break:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05124/498674.stm

OK, I'm flying there tomorrow. I need a bite of something to eat and those 1 pound burgers just don't hack it.

Doc wrote:Marijuana doesn't hurt anyone just like murder doesn't hurt anyone. How about the concept of right and wrong?

So what is inherently "wrong" with smoking marijuana? What is the moral argument that the simple act of smoking marijuana is a "bad thing"?

I think a lot of people have the issue mixed up too.. the public fight for marijuana isn't about blanket legalisation, it's about decriminalisation and research into legitimate uses. I think we can all agree that a fight for complete legalisation wouldn't go too far, and would be.. well, pretty dumb. But closing our minds to the potential benefits of these substances is JUST AS F**KING STUPID as subscribing to the anarchist philosophy of drug control.

Hydrocodone is a drug often prescribed for pain.. it is still illegal to posess if you don't have a legit script for it, and there are those who abuse it(most famously, Rush Limbaugh). I don't know what your answers will be to my first two questions, but for the sake of consistency I hope you're able to replace "marijuana" with "hydrocodone", or "percocet", or "vicodin" and give the exact same answer.

I don't want to make a case one way or the other, but who here has researched the effects of the above mentioned pain killers on the body and risks associated with taking them, compared to the effects and risks of responsible pot smoking? The information is out there, and is well worth searching for.

Funk "who knows of many cases of kidney failure caused by OTC tylenol, but not a single one related to pot" cicle

MaryAnn wrote:1. Whoever said I was wrong about writing that if you buy drugs you particpate in the murders etc involved to get them, using an example of Canadian pot, yeah you could be right, if I buy Canadian pot. I guess I was referred to the other drugs.

I live close to the Canadian border, and I can tell you that there are backwoods areas in British Columbia that you had better not go hikling in because you will not come out again.