Melbourne Symphony Orchestra

[Alex Kidston]

I have submitted this user for censure on this BBS - while a frank and open discussion has been pursued, he has continuosly been confrontational and insulting. While I understand that the issues raised are ones that are emotionally highly-charged, I think that this sort of forum should be treated with the professional courtesy that it deserves. Not agreeing with someone is one thing, but hurling abuse is inappropriate and as we all know has no place in our profession. In addition, the music industry is a small one, and who knows who you might meet, play with and/or need help from in the not-so-distant future...

On a more specific note, no implication was made regarding any of the candidates for the BPO position as only the audition panel can fairly comment on their selection. The point made was that there are myriad obstacles at the moment for a non-EU passport holder in terms of securing a position. The fact is also that several audition postings in the EU have clearly stated that all applicants must be EU passport holders. Berlin is of course an exception, but I believe (but may be wrong) that EU auditions were held before the final auditions. Again, I would argue that the most interesting thing in this whole discussion is that a German player was hired in the face of global competition, testimony perhaps to the re-establishment of national sounds in orchestral playing?

On that note, Happy Christmas and New Year!

Alex Kidston

[MikeMason]

Alex, you are a relative new-comer here.I've been coming here since somewhere in the mid 90's.This place is just a microcosm of the real world.We've debated the level of civility ad-nauseum over the years.I think the concensus is the least possible amount of censorship is still the best for an open exchange of ideas.Freedom is certainly flawed,but still by far the best way to live.A few years back I suggested a more accurate user profile and real names be used which I think would be very useful when evaluating a member's posts, but was summarily shot down.Oh well.................

[UDELBR]

Really only UncleBeer knows what he meant by the phrase, so if he wants to elucidate, I will be checking back...not holding my breath, though.

(sigh) I play in a European orchestra, and often deal with auditions. Did you even look into what's involved in getting residence & work permits, Tubadad?

"Granting a work permit to a non-EU citizen must not place Germans, EU or EEA citizens at a disadvantage on the jobs market. This essentially means a permit will only be granted if no comparable EU or EEA employee is available." http://www.expatica.com/actual/article. ... y_id=29022

But again, believe what you want.

[Alex Kidston]

It gets better and better!

Although an attempt was made to offer an olive branch to settle this BBS scuffle, I can see that there is no end in sight to the bile spilling out from Virginia.

1 Unclebeer - English as a second language!!! - school-boy error, my friend, do a bit of research and you will find out how wrong you are, exactly...I would enlighten you but that's a breach of confidence which I'm unable to make.

While others have also reacted to Unclebeer's straight shooting, do not be falsely emboldened by strength in numbers. If respect on this BBS is granted (in part) based on playing ability and years service as a professional player, then Unclebeer is right up there and deserves to be heard. While you may be claiming the higher ground in some sort of morality play, would you like to pit your credentials against his?

I am quite willing to put my cards on the table - my playing cv is viewable on http://www.maslink.co.uk/ClientsAndCVs.htm under tuba...originally Canadian, I've studied in Toronto, New York and London (UK) where I eventually made my home 10 years ago. While I'm not sitting in an orchestral chair full-time, I am enjoying the world of freelance playing, one which I have found requires a lot of diplomacy and tact, hence my involvement iin this thread.

2 Arrogance - example of the pot calling the kettle here, methinks. Why is it that you are so determined to be proven right, from your keyboard in Virginia, in the face of a professional player who has lived and worked in the EU for decades? You continually point an accusing finger at Unclebeer when you haven't even taken the time to realise that his 'opinions' are 'facts', ones that are not always printed or in fact said. Granted, your son also has first hand experience but if I were in your shoes I would be listening and learning, especially if you are interested in your son possibly being employed outside of the US. Kudos to him, by the way, for being invited to Berlin, a very good achievement, could lead to great things...did he meet Fergus McWilliam (horn)? A fellow Canadian (via UK) and University of Toronto alumni...

As an aside, I've attended a handful of EU auditions over the past few years - I would say that half of them have stipulated in the posting text that only EU passport holders may apply. An example are the Dutch postings that say applicants must 'be resident, with full permission to work in the Netherlands'.

3 'Facts' - it is my BELIEF that EU orchestras (once an EU audition has been held without a winner) invite people from around the world to audition. Top-flight bands like the BPO often have enough power to heavily influence the audition winner's chances of being granted permission to work, if they want that person badly enough. It's a win - win scenario for them. As an interesting aside, does anyone know how Cleveland was able to hire a Japanese tubist (lucky them, he's brilliant!)?

4 Stop - I would reccommend that you re-read all of this thread and see if you can discover the ounce of humility it would require to step away from the aggressive send button...you really aren't doing anyone any favours and it's getting a bit tiring. Please read this as friendly advice, given in the Christmas spirit, not as a challenge! My only motivation in continuing this thread is the hope that anyone reading who is interested in working outside North America will pick up on some of the realities, and perhaps do their homework...

Hope everyone is having a great Christmas Day! Back to the food and drink...

Alex Kidston

[MikeMason]

Not to mention when/if your real identity is revealed the embarassment and possible professional damage done to your son and even his teacher.This is a very small community and reputation does matter.Even now,not knowing anyone involved or really caring much,i'm wondering"what kind of tuba player allows his dad to pick and fight idiotic battles for him?".I'd have shut my dad down long ago.....Of course,maybe he's too busy practicing for the next one to read this or even care......

[UDELBR]

it is duly noted that neither he or Alex Kidston took a stab at defining the term after being given ample opportunity, so I consider that their silence on this point is deafening.

I did that as a small favor to you, to save you embarrassment.

By your own admission, you're uninformed as to EU requirements re: residence and work permits, yet you say you sent your son to Berlin for an audition. Surely you knew these things would be necessary were he to win the job ... right? Since it's nigh impossible for non-EU applicants to obtain these permits, it becomes plain the committee had no real plans to award your son the job. Whether you choose to view it as a cruel joke on their part, or a blessing that they choose to grant him audition experience at this level is up to you.

You're obviously looking for a fight. Look elsewhere.

[Alex Kidston]

Peace, love and unitay....ain't nuthin' like a good debate...over Christmas...

AK

[Steve Oberheu]

So, to explain....no, that is too long....let me sum up.....

Each country, by right, has it's own regulations on how to run its business (including orchestral auditions). Those of us outside that country need to respect that it is different from our own and we have no real reason to get indignant if we are being excluded. If the chance arises to take that audition after the job is not offered to a national of that country, go for it.

Having lived in 4 different countries myself (U.S., Switzerland, Mexico and Canada), I've learned that you gotta play by the rules.

To those who get to take the audition, best of luck! You know....Tommy Johnson's son plays in that orchestra!

Steve Oberheu

[TubaRay]

I've gotta agree with Steve. Each country gets to make its own rules. Whether I happen to like or agree with the rules or not doesn't matter. Unfortunately, I don't rule the world.

[TubaRay]

Unfortunately, I don't rule the world.

Ousted by one of those dang military coups d'état again, Ray?

When I think of how wonderful things would be if I ruled the world, I often get choked up inside. I believe I should be named ruler as soon as I figure out all the other answers to the world's problems. I'm working on it.

[TubaRay]

Please don't let that stand in your way, man. It has never seemed to be much of a deal to our world leaders of any era. Platitudes, man. Just be ready with the platitudes.

Unfortunately, you are right about that.