Principal Tuba Position, West Virginia Symphony

Todd S. Malicoate · Post by **Todd S. Malicoate** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:41 pm

joebob wrote:For those of you that can't imagine what kind of person could/would do this gig, here is an article about some members of the orchestra including the former tuba player:

http://www.dailymail.com/story/Life/+/2 ... ly-fishing

Some relatively simple searching about other members of this group shows me that many do travel 200 miles or more and that many play in other regional orchestras and/or teach college.

In my experience with orchestras at this level, they expect that their players play in other groups and it is often negotiated into the contract that a player can miss X number of services per season (without pay of course).

Whether or not this gig is worth it is up to the beholder. It's obviously worth it to an orchestra full of players who currently do it.

Great link, Joe...thanks.

I was not aware that musicians in second or third-tier symphonies often negotiate to be able to miss a certain number of services, or that management is sensitive to the fact that their players play in other groups that might create some scheduling difficulties (otherwise, why would they care?). I've always heard that orchestra management was rather inflexible toward that sort of thing, the exception being, of course, if you have a competent sub available when you must miss.

I have no doubt that someone will find this job perfect for their situation...I was really just looking for some discussion from players who have lived this life and how they have managed to pull it off, particularly the multiple-orchestra angle. But thanks again for the research on the WV Symphony...some interesting reading.

danB · Post by **danB** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:34 pm

Multiple gigs? Take our own Tubaalex for example:

-Alex Lapins
_________________
Indiana State University
University of Indianapolis
Columbus Brass Quintet
Terre Haute Symphony
Columbus Indiana Philharmonic
Lafayette Symphony

Great player, great guy. Spends time in his car so he can stay behind the horn. Tubenetters; maybe you wouldn't do this. Great, enjoy the view in your cubicle. Tthere are a lot of great players out there with and without gigs would love this gig in Virginia. If you like your non music job great. But don't waste bandwith harping on people who have the guts to practice their buts off to play in groups like the West Virginia Symphony. Good luck to all who audition and boo to haters.

d

Zade · Post by **Zade** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:22 pm

Any news? Do we have a winner?

Zade

tubalex · Post by **tubalex** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:03 pm

I don't have the results, I didn't go for this one.

Jeez I didn't even know I was referenced here. In short, having multiple gigs instead of one steady gig (basically; freelancing) is a very stressful way to make a living, but it affords you more variety and in some ways flexibility than most other career paths. It takes years to get to the point that you can support yourself, (Indiana:5 years, LA: more like ten or fifteen years). And some of the work is amazing while some of it is quite boring.

For me, what make it worth while is: I work with dozens and dozens of exiting young and old musicians in a wide variety of settings, I never have to work behind a desk, (except when helping students with organizational stuff), I am daily using the skills I worked so hard to develop in many, many years as a music student, I get to re-create the work of some of the greatest human minds ever, I get to help young musicians develop a love for music and an ability to express themselves.

That being said I would prefer to be in a full-time playing or teaching position, but I would definitely not rather be going to a non-musical job just for the sake of regularity and less time in the car.

It's pretty tricky to get the scheduling worked out properly, but you can always look at the whole season and figure out how to minimize missing services, by spreading your absences across all your obligations, so you miss a little of each group, as opposed to a lot from one or two. These groups know they are not paying enough for a full, inflexible commitment, and as long as you don't take too much time off they tend to be supportive of you making a living from a variety of sources.

-Alex

Todd S. Malicoate · Post by **Todd S. Malicoate** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:30 pm

tubalex wrote:It's pretty tricky to get the scheduling worked out properly, but you can always look at the whole season and figure out how to minimize missing services, by spreading your absences across all your obligations, so you miss a little of each group, as opposed to a lot from one or two. These groups know they are not paying enough for a full, inflexible commitment, and as long as you don't take too much time off they tend to be supportive of you making a living from a variety of sources.

-Alex

Thanks for the reply, Alex...this is exactly the sort of information I was seeking in my earlier posts. It's nice to know it is possible to miss a little from each of several groups and make it work. Popular opinion in the circles I've run with led me to believe that most orchestra management folks are very inflexible and hard to deal with in such circumstances, but it's nice to know you are able to "get it done" in an effective manner.

Three orchestra positions and two teaching jobs..."stressful way to make a living" sounds like a monstrous understatement. My hat is off to you, sir...you are an inspiration to those of us struggling to get started in this difficult business we call tuba playing.

BTW...how active is the Indianapolis studio scene these days?

All the best,

Todd

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:08 pm

Todd,
It often depends on the caliber of individual that they want in a free-lance or ROPA job. Full-time gigs are not so understanding, but the maximum will be spelled out in the contract, or negotiated individually.

It's not unusual for smaller groups to actually coordinate their services, if they want similar people in both, and they're close.
It's also in their best interest because they may even be looking for the same patron.

_________________
Michael Keller
Principal Tuba, emeritus,
Delaware Symphony Orchestra

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:22 pm

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:I'd love to hear from anyone that has been able to hold more than one gig of this level (you all know what I mean) at the same time. ...

I, for one, can't imagine taking a gig of this level and trying to handle a similar gig in another town...I'd be living scared all the time of a conflict of interests...I could be wrong, though...

It's been done fairly frequently in the North Texas area. I played in orchestras in Wichita Falls and Longview at the same time, while I subbed regularly in a local orchestra. I know of several others who have done this, too.

In fact, I'm surprised that it seems so far fetched to anybody.

At present, a number of brass players play in the Dallas Opera, a local orchestra and the Dallas Wind Symphony at the same time. It's just part of the routine here. By the way, two of the brass players above also teach full-time at a university. And play in a quintet. And gig.

If you are a working musician, traveling is part of the job description. If you want a job where you go sit for 40 hours a week and play in one place... well, there aren't many of those for tuba players.

Frankly, I'd be more worried about the audition than the travel. Get the gig, then figure it out.

Todd S. Malicoate · Post by **Todd S. Malicoate** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:16 am

Alex C wrote:I played in orchestras in Wichita Falls and Longview at the same time, while I subbed regularly in a local orchestra. I know of several others who have done this, too.

In fact, I'm surprised that it seems so far fetched to anybody.

Come on, now...Wichita Falls has 6 concerts scheduled this season (two of which might not include tuba..."A Family-Style Christmas" with the MSU choir and "Classical Mystery Tour"...can't tell from the website) and Longview only has 5 scheduled, one of which is a chamber-only concert (piano trio - no tuba). Those two together make up maybe half of the services the West Virginia tuba player will have.

Of course a player could do both of these...I guess what I find "far fetched" is the fact that there are so many smaller orchestras (that pay?) close enough together for one player to get to all of them...great for you in Texas, but we were talking about West Virginia here.

Alex C wrote:At present, a number of brass players play in the Dallas Opera, a local orchestra and the Dallas Wind Symphony at the same time. It's just part of the routine here. By the way, two of the brass players above also teach full-time at a university. And play in a quintet. And gig.

Again...fantastic if you live in the Dallas area. My point throughout this entire thread was to ask who in their right mind wants to move to Charleston for a $9K a year job. There's not an opera orchestra, wind symphony, university teaching gig, or paying "local orchestra" within three driving hours (one way) to help supplement your income.

Reminds me of a topic for another thread...tuba instructors at 4-year schools who drive from some distance away to be there one day a week for their students. I've had a tuba professor in this situation before, and believe me when I tell you it sucks for the students and is really unfair to them.

Can you sustain a "day job" with the time demands the West Virginia Symphony has? I don't know...never had a gig like that myself...but I was hoping for some perspective from someone in a similar situation, not someone in a large metropolitan area where playing gigs are more plentiful.

Alex C wrote:If you are a working musician, traveling is part of the job description. If you want a job where you go sit for 40 hours a week and play in one place... well, there aren't many of those for tuba players.

Point granted that no one can expect to sit and play in one place for a living (well, almost no one). But I wonder where the line is in regards to how far is too far to make a second gig feasable...100 miles? 200? That's my argument against a low-paying symphony job that's in a fairly isolated region.

Alex C wrote:Frankly, I'd be more worried about the audition than the travel. Get the gig, then figure it out.

Nope...you have to put at least some thought into if the gig is right for your situation. 21, fresh out of college, no family to support? Yeah, I can see the "get the gig first" attitude. Have a family, a couple of kids, and think about uprooting them for this gig? Not a chance.

joshwirt · Post by **joshwirt** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:39 am

As Todd pointed out......

There is NOTHING within 3 hours of Charleston......I'm 2.5 hours away in Blacksburg, but their rehearsal schedule just wasn't gonna work for my 'day job'. Too much driving back and forth for that kinda money. I'm not giving up a job that pays A LOT more than $9K (not to mention all the quintet work I have here now that adds a big chunk to my income) just so I can add 'Principal Tuba' to my signature on TubeNet....and get that fancy 'Professional' icon.

That is, of course, assuming I had auditioned and won the gig.

The life of a freelancer is a hard one. I tip my hat to those of you out there who do it day in and day out.

-Josh

pierre · Post by **pierre** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:29 am

So did anyone take, or possibly even win, the audition?

Getzeng50s · Post by **Getzeng50s** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:55 am

i took the audition. but i have no idea who won.

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:40 am

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:
Alex C wrote:I played in orchestras in Wichita Falls and Longview ... I know of several others who have done this, too.

In fact, I'm surprised that it seems so far fetched to anybody.
Come on, now......together make up maybe half of the services the West Virginia tuba player will have.

Of course a .... player to get to all of them...great for you in Texas, but we were talking about West Virginia here.

Alex C wrote:At present, a number of brass players play in the Dallas Opera, a local orchestra and the Dallas Wind Symphony at the same ...in a quintet. And gig.
Again...fantastic if you live in the Dallas area. My point throughout this entire thread was to ask who in their right mind wants to move to Charleston for a $9K a year job.

Alex C wrote:If you are a working musician, traveling is part of the job description. If you want a job where you go sit for 40 hours a week and play in one place... well, there aren't many of those for tuba players.
Point granted ....in a fairly isolated region.

Alex C wrote:Frankly, I'd be more worried about the audition than the travel. Get the gig, then figure it out.
Nope.....

Well, I didn't know I was dealing with an expert. Why'd you ask if you weren't ready to consider the answers? No need to be insulting about it, cowboy. (That's not an insult folks, that's a reference to Todd's association with Oklahoma State University, apparently the repository of all musical wisdom, now firmly conveyed to this person.)

If the point was to ask why anyone would move to Charleston to play in that orchestra, that's what you should have said in your post. You specifically asked Bob for some examples which is what I was responding to; you should have told us that your question's real parameters weren't stated.

I established the answer to your question but if I'd known you wanted to trade "points" and be insulting, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

I don't post for points, I was posting an answer to what I thought was an honest question from someone without experience. I chose Wichita Falls and Longview because the two orchestras constituted a long driving distance, applicable to your question and in contrast to the metropolitan examples I cited.

I could also cite Shreveport and Dallas as a two-orchestra-drive but I can't work up enough points to make it worth explaining.

It should be pointed out that your information about Wichita Falls may be a bit dated. It was a fine orchestra with a bit more than six concerts at the time. After they were put on the AFM Unfair list, things went down a bit, or didn't you know about that? No?

Looking back over the thread, when you responded to a post it was an oppositional stance more than half the time, I think I understand your motivation better now.

The "Come on now" opening was extremely condescending but I loved the "Nope" response; it was so...... definitive. Geez.

Norm Pearson · Post by **Norm Pearson** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:45 am

Getzeng50s wrote:i took the audition. but i have no idea who won.

Aubrey Foard

Todd S. Malicoate · Post by **Todd S. Malicoate** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:03 pm

Alex C wrote:Well, I didn't know I was dealing with an expert. Why'd you ask if you weren't ready to consider the answers? No need to be insulting about it, cowboy. (That's not an insult folks, that's a reference to Todd's association with Oklahoma State University, apparently the repository of all musical wisdom, now firmly conveyed to this person.)

If the point was to ask why anyone would move to Charleston to play in that orchestra, that's what you should have said in your post. You specifically asked Bob for some examples which is what I was responding to; you should have told us that your question's real parameters weren't stated.

I established the answer to your question but if I'd known you wanted to trade "points" and be insulting, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

I don't post for points, I was posting an answer to what I thought was an honest question from someone without experience. I chose Wichita Falls and Longview because the two orchestras constituted a long driving distance, applicable to your question and in contrast to the metropolitan examples I cited.

I could also cite Shreveport and Dallas as a two-orchestra-drive but I can't work up enough points to make it worth explaining.

It should be pointed out that your information about Wichita Falls may be a bit dated. It was a fine orchestra with a bit more than six concerts at the time. After they were put on the AFM Unfair list, things went down a bit, or didn't you know about that? No?

Looking back over the thread, when you responded to a post it was an oppositional stance more than half the time, I think I understand your motivation better now.

The "Come on now" opening was extremely condescending but I loved the "Nope" response; it was so...... definitive. Geez.

Apology offered...I don't post for points, either, and didn't intend to come off insulting or condescending. I just had an honest disagreement with your comparison of multiple gigs in the North Texas area to those available in the Charleston, WV area. If I had read the post of mine you quoted at the beginning more carefully, I would have understood better that you were specifically responding to the question I asked about multiple gigs and all that entails. I could have been more clear by saying 78 services or so instead of "you all know what I mean" in reference to the kind of jobs I was talking about. You are correct in assuming I didn't know about the recent change in the Wichita Falls situation, I was just going off their current season as listed on their website.

I'm certainly no expert (as my lack of knowledge of the recent Wichita Falls situation surely demonstrates), and I don't intend to come off that way. Again, I'm truly sorry for rubbing you the wrong way, and I'll try to be more sensitive to the tone of my writing in future posts.

Allow me to rephrase the entire question. I'm sure many of the folks here with degrees in tuba performance have thought about how they might get started in a symphony playing career. If you're like me, you probably figured you'd have to win a position with a smaller symphony (like West Virginia), get some experience, and hopefully eventually be able to move on to bigger, more prestigious positions. I'm just wondering what sorts of things you can do to supplement your income in a smaller town, fairly isolated situation such as the one we have been discussing in this thread.

There have to be some players here from the smaller orchestras...do you have day jobs completely removed from the music business, or do you find ways to perform/teach/compose/whatever so that you can enjoy a reasonable standard of living? These were issues we never discussed in my undergradute/graduate studies in college, and it would be nice to get some stories from folks who have done this and are doing it now.

Congratulations to Aubrey Foard...I hope you have an excellent experience in West Virginia, and hope you return here to post share some of your adventures with us.

sc_curtis · Post by **sc_curtis** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:28 pm

Norm Pearson wrote:
Getzeng50s wrote:i took the audition. but i have no idea who won.
Aubrey Foard

Aubrey is one monster of a player!

Congrats, Aubrey!

anonymous4 · Post by **anonymous4** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:29 pm

Well Todd, you might get an answer to your question after all. If I remember correct, Aubrey is currently in the Albany Symphony. If you ask nice, he might post here to let you know how he plans to play in two orchestra that are nearly 700 miles apart.

Jarrod · Post by **Jarrod** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:09 pm

Aubrey also goes to school at Colburn in California....so....if he can pull off all 3 of these "gigs" then I guess some of you can re-think what is possible...

Getzeng50s · Post by **Getzeng50s** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:46 pm

anonymous4 · Post by **anonymous4** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:15 pm

Getzeng50s wrote:i think hes just going to FLY in an Airplane to them.

So who pays for all those plane rides? Do the orchestras provide travel money, or would he have to pay out of his pocket to play with them?

I can't imagine the latter scenario. With the prices of tickets these days, along with the sometimes as high as $150 that airlines charge per each item of oversize/overweight luggage. Ouch!

Getzeng50s · Post by **Getzeng50s** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:28 pm

i know for a fact that west Virginia put you up in a hotel, and pays travel to a certain degree. Albany symphony puts people up with host families and also pays some travel.