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Hello there,

Does anyone have information about this position? i.e is it full time (other than the info posted on the orchestra's website)

Also, has anyone applied and received any audition rep etc..

Thanks.

You might try contacting Jacomo Bairos who lived in Shanghai and played with an orchestra there.

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jun2002 ... 00027.html" target="_blank

Anyone considering this position could also do themselves good by contacting Micky Wrobleski of the Beijing Symphony. He did some time with this group as well and has been living in China for a good 5-6 years now I believe.

Great, thanks for the contacts.

A little update here...

Not long ago I found an online article about upheaval in another of China's orchestras, I believe it was the Central Symphony Orchestra, but after lengthy searches I cannot find the article again. The orchestra was essentially re-hired all musicians had to apply and audition for their own jobs, which caused a lot of resentment, especially as many members were not successful in getting their own jobs back. The conductor who instigated the change was the very same Yu Long as has recently been hired as Music Director for the Shanghai Symphony.

The following quote from today's http://www.shanghaidaily.com" target="_blank might be interesting to read in that context. Especially the last paragraph would be of interest:

------------------------------

THE Shanghai Symphony Orchestra has attracted applications from 236 musicians in 25 countries.

The orchestra which was established in 1879, was the first professional orchestra in China and is one of the most outstanding and influential orchestras in Asia.

In April it announced that it would open 103 positions to international players. The deadline for applications is June 12.

This is the first time the orchestra has opened its doors to international players. The overseas auditions will be held in Berlin and New York.

In Berlin 90 musicians will be auditioned and there will be 80 in New York including some overseas Chinese musicians, said Yu Long, the musical director of the orchestra.

"What attracts them is not merely the potential development of the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra, but living in Shanghai, an exciting city," Yu said.

Of the 236 applicants, one-third are American.

As well as being highly qualified, many of the musicians have experience as players in leading orchestras, like the Phoenix Symphony Orchestra, the Singapore Philharmonic Orchestra and the Frankfurt Youth Symphony Orchestra.

Local Chinese musicians including current members of the SSO have been busy preparing for their own auditions. Five principals from international symphony orchestras will be invited to Shanghai to conduct their auditions.

-------------------------

Ola

Forgot to post the link to the Shanghai Daily article. Here it is: http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article ... 403688.htm" target="_blank

**Edited for idiocy** Sorry for the mis-information!

John,

In an attempt at being fair and unbiased, that post is about a different orchestra. However it MAY give an indication of how musicians are treated in China. The audition has had a lot of very bad publicity on other instrumentalist's message boards though, and I believe this shows on the number of applicants. 236 applicants for 103 jobs in an orchestra doesn't seem quite right; there have been single tuba openings with more applicants than that!

One shall only have to see what they do!

Ola

Howdy folks,

In light of the number of emails I have received in regards to this audition, I thought it would be best to post something here and if there are any questions/concerns which I may miss, then people can feel free to contact me directly.

First, the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra is THE oldest orchestra in the country- bar none. It's history is well over 100 years long and has always had a decent reputation amongst orchestral musicians in China.

The orchestra which most people are thinking about is the now defunct Shanghai Broadcasting Symphony Orchestra. That entire situation was a powder keg. I started there, and within a few months, they had fired the concert master, nearly all the foreign musicians, and the conductor on the basis of "cash flow problems". They didn't fire me because it would have been too expensive to do so. The situation was not an ideal one. It was re-born soon after as the Shanghai Philharmonic.

That's enough about that.

The Shanghai Symphony has had a russian gentleman who has been playing tuba there for many years. A fine player and, from what I've heard, a really good human being. He has a Shanghainese wife and a child. In fact, there are several musicians in the SSO that are in the same situation. What is happening, is everyone is being forced to re-audition for their present positions.

Why?

The center of the Chinese music universe revolves around one man- Yu Long. If you don't believe me, just ask him. He is at the helm of the China Philharmonic, the Guangzhou Symphony, and now, the Shanghai Symphony. There is no denying the fact that the man is a bit of a rain maker. And, in our business, that's a real asset. What Yu Long is hoping to do is to attract as many of the foreign-trained chinese musicians as he can to come back to China. Not a bad idea. Also, by bringing in young faces and, specifically Chinese ones, they will be infinitely more malleable and have much more to lose.

In the few times I have worked with him, Yu Long does not appreciate any questions which may portray him as anything but the second coming of Krajan... During a rehearsal of Mahler 8, a timpani player was asking if we could get more lights because it was quite hard to see Yu Longs ictus. He proceeded to berate the man for a good 5 minutes about his total lack of professionalism and so on. What a guy...

The timing of this whole initiative is a bit fishy. When I arrived in China, in 2003, they were already talking with great anticipation about the 2010 World Expo. I feel it deep in my bones that this is the major driving force. Not so much a musically sustainable one, but one that is as so many things are around here, and ESPECIALLY in Shanghai- put on a good face and once the hoopla is over, let it wither.

One of the biggest problems is going to be the salary and the discrepancies between the different musicians.

For starters:
Chinese Principal Musician-- 15,000 RMB per month
Foreign Principal Musician-- 15,000 RMB PLUS an additional 2,000 USD per month

This is a fantastic salary for China, and for a lot of places. But I cannot see it as at all sustainable. It is possible, and I hope it is sustainable.

The problem lies in the people around you who will be making a VERY small percentage of what you will be making. If you are unlucky enough to rub one person the wrong way, intentionally or accidentally, your days WILL be numbered. In China there is one word which is like a trump card-- guan xi or, connections. You never know who knows who and who they know and so on and so on.... It can work for you, there is no doubt, but it can also run you right out of a job.

There have been two attempts by people in my own orchestra to try to get rid of me. Not because I did anything to them, but because they had a friend who studied in europe, and they tried selling that person to the music director because in the end, the BSO would be able to pay this chinese tuba player much less than what they were paying me. The other was the personnel manager, he thought his reach went farther than it really did and told the music director I was bad for the orchestra. Well, I'm still here and he's unemployed.

JOB SECURITY
In China, there is none. Contracts are more or less for show. They can and have fired people for the most inconceivable reasons. You can't let it consume you. You have to just live with the fact the everything could be over tomorrow. I think I am the exception in this case because I was told by our music director that if anything ever happened to the Beijing Symphony, he would take me with him wherever he went. Dues paid, I guess....

For those interested in cutting their teeth in the hot seat for a little while, I say go for it. All you need in China is a sense of adventure and a lot of patience. Things rarely go as planned, and things are changed, almost always, with little to no notification.
I can't even count on all my fingers and toes the number of times that Coppelia has shown up on a stand and all I have is the big tuba. It's a lot like studio work, in a way. One chance to get it right. Exciting, somehow.

OUTSIDE WORK
On that, many people have asked about outside work. It DOES exist, but, don't expect to have it all thrown at you. The recording scene is getting busier in Shanghai because it is more expensive to record in Beijing. That said, the majority of movie scores, documentaries, etc. are done here, in Beijing. It's like any other city's music scene, you have to play the game a little if you wanna get in on the action. Fortunately for me, in Beijing, they care more about product and less about packaging.

TEACHING
I've been here for six years and students come from everywhere but Beijing for study. Only those with hopes of studying abroad come to me if they live in Beijing. Teachers are the biggest racketeers in this country. They hold onto students with a death grip and slowly bleed them dry. So, if you are looking to have some teaching on the side, don't hold your breath. Oh, and MOST of the tuba students are taught by trombone players, and NONE of them know who Rochut is....

China is a fascinating place and the culture is long, rich, diverse, and complicated. It is certainly, not for everyone. Coming to any foreign country is daunting. Coming to China has been one of the best decisions I have ever made in my life. Even though I was warned not to, it was on the advice of three great people that I took the leap with the charge: make a difference.

Wrobleski out

wrobotuba wrote:Teachers are the biggest racketeers in this country. They hold onto students with a death grip and slowly bleed them dry. So, if you are looking to have some teaching on the side, don't hold your breath. Oh, and MOST of the tuba students are taught by trombone players, and NONE of them know who Rochut is...

Sounds like a lot of places in the USA. Really.

wrobotuba wrote:Howdy folks,
...
Wrobleski out

Thanks for the fine post. I'm sure a lot of other tubenetters also appreciate the time you took to spread accurate information.

wrobotuba wrote:Howdy folks,

In light of the number of emails I have received in regards to this audition, I thought it would be best to post something here and if there are any questions/concerns which I may miss, then people can feel free to contact me directly.

First, the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra is THE oldest orchestra in the country- bar none. It's history is well over 100 years long and has always had a decent reputation amongst orchestral musicians in China.

The orchestra which most people are thinking about is the now defunct Shanghai Broadcasting Symphony Orchestra. That entire situation was a powder keg. I started there, and within a few months, they had fired the concert master, nearly all the foreign musicians, and the conductor on the basis of "cash flow problems". They didn't fire me because it would have been too expensive to do so. The situation was not an ideal one. It was re-born soon after as the Shanghai Philharmonic.

That's enough about that.

The Shanghai Symphony has had a russian gentleman who has been playing tuba there for many years. A fine player and, from what I've heard, a really good human being. He has a Shanghainese wife and a child. In fact, there are several musicians in the SSO that are in the same situation. What is happening, is everyone is being forced to re-audition for their present positions.

Why?

The center of the Chinese music universe revolves around one man- Yu Long. If you don't believe me, just ask him. He is at the helm of the China Philharmonic, the Guangzhou Symphony, and now, the Shanghai Symphony. There is no denying the fact that the man is a bit of a rain maker. And, in our business, that's a real asset. What Yu Long is hoping to do is to attract as many of the foreign-trained chinese musicians as he can to come back to China. Not a bad idea. Also, by bringing in young faces and, specifically Chinese ones, they will be infinitely more malleable and have much more to lose.

In the few times I have worked with him, Yu Long does not appreciate any questions which may portray him as anything but the second coming of Krajan... During a rehearsal of Mahler 8, a timpani player was asking if we could get more lights because it was quite hard to see Yu Longs ictus. He proceeded to berate the man for a good 5 minutes about his total lack of professionalism and so on. What a guy...

The timing of this whole initiative is a bit fishy. When I arrived in China, in 2003, they were already talking with great anticipation about the 2010 World Expo. I feel it deep in my bones that this is the major driving force. Not so much a musically sustainable one, but one that is as so many things are around here, and ESPECIALLY in Shanghai- put on a good face and once the hoopla is over, let it wither.

One of the biggest problems is going to be the salary and the discrepancies between the different musicians.

For starters:
Chinese Principal Musician-- 15,000 RMB per month
Foreign Principal Musician-- 15,000 RMB PLUS an additional 2,000 USD per month

This is a fantastic salary for China, and for a lot of places. But I cannot see it as at all sustainable. It is possible, and I hope it is sustainable.

The problem lies in the people around you who will be making a VERY small percentage of what you will be making. If you are unlucky enough to rub one person the wrong way, intentionally or accidentally, your days WILL be numbered. In China there is one word which is like a trump card-- guan xi or, connections. You never know who knows who and who they know and so on and so on.... It can work for you, there is no doubt, but it can also run you right out of a job.

There have been two attempts by people in my own orchestra to try to get rid of me. Not because I did anything to them, but because they had a friend who studied in europe, and they tried selling that person to the music director because in the end, the BSO would be able to pay this chinese tuba player much less than what they were paying me. The other was the personnel manager, he thought his reach went farther than it really did and told the music director I was bad for the orchestra. Well, I'm still here and he's unemployed.

JOB SECURITY
In China, there is none. Contracts are more or less for show. They can and have fired people for the most inconceivable reasons. You can't let it consume you. You have to just live with the fact the everything could be over tomorrow. I think I am the exception in this case because I was told by our music director that if anything ever happened to the Beijing Symphony, he would take me with him wherever he went. Dues paid, I guess....

For those interested in cutting their teeth in the hot seat for a little while, I say go for it. All you need in China is a sense of adventure and a lot of patience. Things rarely go as planned, and things are changed, almost always, with little to no notification.
I can't even count on all my fingers and toes the number of times that Coppelia has shown up on a stand and all I have is the big tuba. It's a lot like studio work, in a way. One chance to get it right. Exciting, somehow.

OUTSIDE WORK
On that, many people have asked about outside work. It DOES exist, but, don't expect to have it all thrown at you. The recording scene is getting busier in Shanghai because it is more expensive to record in Beijing. That said, the majority of movie scores, documentaries, etc. are done here, in Beijing. It's like any other city's music scene, you have to play the game a little if you wanna get in on the action. Fortunately for me, in Beijing, they care more about product and less about packaging.

TEACHING
I've been here for six years and students come from everywhere but Beijing for study. Only those with hopes of studying abroad come to me if they live in Beijing. Teachers are the biggest racketeers in this country. They hold onto students with a death grip and slowly bleed them dry. So, if you are looking to have some teaching on the side, don't hold your breath. Oh, and MOST of the tuba students are taught by trombone players, and NONE of them know who Rochut is....

China is a fascinating place and the culture is long, rich, diverse, and complicated. It is certainly, not for everyone. Coming to any foreign country is daunting. Coming to China has been one of the best decisions I have ever made in my life. Even though I was warned not to, it was on the advice of three great people that I took the leap with the charge: make a difference.

Wrobleski out

One of the most thought out and informative posts I've seen on this site. Nice Micky! Hope you are doing well. We will have to get the "All Asia" thing going here some time soon.
How long did it take you to get through those hostess goodies? Be in touch!

Interesting since I live in Shanghai and am a bass trombone player. On another note, we are looking for brass players for fun ensemble playing (non-commercial) around holidays. Have most of a brass quintet now. contact jba49@aol.com" target="_blank if interested

Mr. Wrobotuba,
You should really log onto FB and accept any pending friend requests. Oh, and thanks for the informative post