Juilliard article - NYT

[jon112780]

This paragraph (which appears towards the bottom on the article), sums it up very well...

"In the end, maybe going to a conservatory is like being a compulsive gambler: It is one big bet, but the drive to study music is so blinding, and doing anything else so inconceivable, that young players are oblivious to the risk. Sometimes it is hard to determine whether they are driven by single-mindedness or they live in self-denial."

[Watchman]

It's kind of like why people always play the lottery even though they won't win. So long as there is a chance of something amazing happening, people will do it. Yeah, maybe you just got done with a 2.5 hour drive for a gig with an obscure orchestra to make about $150. Your life can change if you can juuust win that next audition. Can't win if you don't play the game.

At this point you can probably chime in about how idiotic of a decision it is to do this. How can people not realize what they are doing to their future? When they get to their 30's they will regret all that time practicing Die Meistersinger for nothing.

You're right of course, but the bottom line is that people aren't rational. Getting 18 year-old kids to make good decisions to please their 75 year-old selves never really works out well.

[Three Valves]

You're right of course, but the bottom line is that people aren't rational. Getting 18 year-old kids to make good decisions to please their 75 year-old selves never really works out well.

It works for medical doctors and engineers.

He needed a day job. But a Juilliard degree had not prepared him for much besides playing. "When you go to a conservatory, something as specialized as that, you're basically from a different planet," he said. He cast a wide net, but the only outfit that offered him a job was an insurance company in Long Beach, N.Y., on Long Island. He played a few jobs in the evenings. But he was earning his living as a customer service representative.

Last May, Mr. Alexander finished out of the running in yet another audition, for the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and saw his finances on a precipice. So in what he called a heartbreaking moment, he sold his bassoon for $5,300 to pay credit card bills. "It was time," he said. "It got to the point where you're just tired of being poor." Now he lives in Phoenix and works as an assistant underwriter.

This seems strangely familiar!!

[windshieldbug]

In the US:
ICSOM (International Conference of Symphony and Orchestra Musicians) has 52 member orchestras/full time jobs
ROPA (Regional Orchestra Players Association ) has 74 member orchestra/full and part-time jobs

Even with subs, you do the math.

[Three Valves]

I should never have given up my shot at the NFL for the Tuba.

[Watchman]

It works for medical doctors and engineers.

You would think so. Then you've also got people like my uncle, who was making loads of money working as an engineer for Boeing, and gave it up to become a freelance inventor. He doesn't make as much money anymore, though I think he likes his life better.

How about this: people are only rational SOME of the time.

[vlatuba]

To play the Devils advocate for a moment...


This is from the Wikipedia page for conductor Yan Pascal Tortellier:

Tortelier was born in Paris. His father withdrew his children from formal education so that they could concentrate on music. Paul Tortelier was asked about this during an interview with Huw Wheldon on British television: Wheldon queried, "but what happens if [your children] don't become soloists?" and Tortelier responded, "Well, if you start thinking about what will happen if you don't succeed, you won't."

[Three Valves]

It works for medical doctors and engineers.

You would think so. Then you've also got people like my uncle, who was making loads of money working as an engineer for Boeing, and gave it up to become a freelance inventor. He doesn't make as much money anymore, though I think he likes his life better.

Ah, but he was an engineer for Boeing BEFORE he became a "freelance inventor."

(I take it that means semi-retired engineer)

[happyroman]

I have a few thoughts on this subject. Most of us end up getting what we REALLY want out of life. If we pursue a career in music, and achieve our goals, then it means we had the desire and willingness to do whatever it took to be successful. However, if it does not work out, then that was probably what we really wanted to happen, for a myriad of reasons, including the fear of success. Not in all cases, but for many who tried and did not get their ultimate job, if they look in the mirror and are honest with themselves, they will know that there were many times where they knew what needed to be done, but were unable to do it for whatever reason. Those who succeed in any competitive field find a way to do the things that most people will not.

My second thought is that, just because one does not achieve their goal to have a career as a musician, their life is not over. They will not be relegated to menial jobs or become homeless. In the late 1980s, I came to the realization that my goal of getting an orchestra job was not going to happen. So, I went back to school and got an engineering degree. I have been doing that for more than 20 years, and have had a very nice and enjoyable life. While in school, I worked full time and took out loans to pay for my education. My wife had a good job, and my parents helped out financially from time to time. We found a way, and we got it done.

So, if one really wants to become a professional musician, I see no other way than to dedicate oneself to it 100%, and pursue their goals with a singleness of purpose. Those who confront what they really need to do to achieve their goals, pay the price, and are persistent, will usually be successful.

There will be some luck involved at times, however. I heard an interview with Phil Myers, Principal Horn in New York, and he said that, in may cases, those who become professional musicians are able to do so because they get that first job. He started in a small orchestra that did not pay very well. But, it gave him time to practice, which in turn allowed him to win auditions for better jobs. He said that there are many players who had comparable talent, but never won that first gig, and did not have the same amount of time to devote to practice because they had to work a day job. Those players had a much more difficult path, and many did not succeed.

[bort]

I only skimmed the article, but the part that stuck out to me the most was the guy who finally gave up and sold his bassoon, and took a job in insurance in his 30s. That's exactly the type of thing I don't have a problem with -- spend your 20s chasing your dreams, and make a backup plan in case it doesn't work.

Life is short, life is long, and life is back-ended. You can't very easily turn 50 and decide to make a career change to be a musician because you've always wanted to do it. Your chance is to try to do it when you're young, and then do "something else" if that doesn't work out.

People are too afraid of failure these days. They see failure as an endpoint, and not as a starting point for whatever is next. Yes, there's a point where you can just be an idiot about it, but I think it takes longer to get to that point than many of us want to admit.

[Watchman]

......become professional musicians are able to do so because they get that first job. He started in a small orchestra that did not pay very well. But, it gave him time to practice, which in turn allowed him to win auditions for better jobs.

This is EXTREMELY important. A job like this allows the person to extend their "school" lifestyle of constant practice. When you are a music major in college you have so much practice time. It's a big reason people go bachelor's -> master's -> bullcrap certificate? -> doctorate?

It ain't about getting more education. It's about getting more practice time. If you don't have a job for you when you graduate, get ready for a hell of a grind if you still want to perform full time. You're talking about putting 40 hours at job so you can pay bill, plus finding whatever time you need to practice, plus teaching and networking if you want to stay somewhat musically active. If you have a significant other, or family, they are going to get awful tired of not seeing you ever. Also, good luck finding a PLACE to practice! Unlimited access to practice facilities that don't mind an instrument that is as (to be quite frank) obnoxious as the tuba going full steam is another thing college kids take for granted.

Good luck to any who attempt it!

[MikeMason]

Uh,math. How many full time tuba jobs this year?

[Three Valves]

Last year, I pro'lly raked in a big phat $10K (maybe $12K...??) making fart-sounds into gigantic spiral cones of brass...

Think about how much better things could have been if Dad had gotten you a new CC tuba for your HS graduation!!

[eutubabone]

Wait a minute, let me think about this statement you just made- you are Dad, or you is Dad . If you say I am Dad that's a whole nother quantum level of understanding of the Dad-thingy relationship to those of us on the Tube here.

[tubanonymous]

It's sad that so many people have overlooked one important statistic. People with art degrees, after ten years, make just as much as people with stem degrees

Seriously guys, if we don't see the value of a liberal arts education, who will? Tsk Tsk

[Watchman]

What percentage of "tuba performance major" graduates (with not-insubstantial student loan debt...) reported more than that on their tax return yesterday ?

I would guess you have somewhere along the lines of 30 years of experience, connections, and all the perks of old(er) age. The young guys have a degree. Of course they won't make as much as you do.

Or perhaps you are making the point that even with all your experience and wisdom you are ONLY making enough to provide a "redneck" family with the "essentials" for living the high life?

[Three Valves]

Wait a minute, let me think about this statement you just made- you are Dad, or you is Dad . If you say I am Dad that's a whole nother quantum level of understanding of the Dad-thingy relationship to those of us on the Tube here.

I was hoping it isn't some weird Marty McFly thing.

[Three Valves]

It's sad that so many people have overlooked one important statistic. People with art degrees, after ten years, make just as much as people with stem degrees

Seriously guys, if we don't see the value of a liberal arts education, who will? Tsk Tsk

Link??

[tubanonymous]

asdf

There is plenty of info easily find online. I am quoting several researchers in education from a segment of npr's On Point titled "the enduring value of an arts education"

Sure, the writing is on the wall for orchestras, but we are being a bit ridiculous in assuming liberal educations are meant to keep orchestras stocked with players

[PMeuph]

It's sad that so many people have overlooked one important statistic. People with art degrees, after ten years, make just as much as people with stem degrees

Seriously guys, if we don't see the value of a liberal arts education, who will? Tsk Tsk

With all respect, music isn't exactly a "liberal arts" degree. If you study in a conservatory, or in a university performance program, you won't get much of a liberal arts training. I've met some music graduates who didn't if have great writing skills, organizational skills, or more importantly great personal skills...

Music Degrees don't necessarily help student develop those skills.

_____
The article is 10 years old (11 actually)... So those graduates have graduated music school 21 years ago. It would interesting and telling to find out how many have moved on.

I went to a conservatory, many of the graduates have moved on. Some are still trying to find jobs.

I bumped into a clarinettist (Who graduated from his Masters during my first year undergrad (9 years ago). He did the freelance clarinet thing(regional orchestras, subbing with the local orchestra, teaching, and conducting a local wind band)...But, after 7 years of doing that (Getting married and having a kid in that time) he put down his clarinet and went to do an accounting degree. (He's still in school)....How many people do I know who went to school and have moved on? Many... Most are happy to have a music degree and to work in another field.

Most have gone on to a second degree.
_______

My anecdotes aren't data, but then again, most data is probably as biased as no one wants to admit their failure.