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Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby MKainuma » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:03 pm

Noticed this today on the AFM website. Good luck, everyone!

Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

TUBA - Principal Tuba

Resume Date: 3/11/16
Audition Date: Preliminary Auditions April 4, 2016; Final Auditions April 5, 2016
Start Date: see website
Salary/Benefits: see website
Services: see website

General Information: The Audition Committee reserves the right to dismiss immediately any candidate not meeting the highest professional standards of this audition. The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

Contact Information: Only highly qualified applicants should send a one-page resume by fax, mail or e-mail to: Andrew Williams, Assistant Orchestra Personnel Manager, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, 1241 Elm Street Cincinnati, Ohio 45202 Fax: (513) 744-3535 E-mail: awilliams@cincinnatisymphony.org
Last edited by MKainuma on Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby Tubasam135 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:07 pm

Do you know what is on the audition list? I can't seem to find anything on the cinnSO website. -_-
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby MKainuma » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:57 am

When the information is made available, it will likely be posted here:
http://www.cincinnatisymphony.org/careers

Tubasam135 wrote:Do you know what is on the audition list? I can't seem to find anything on the cinnSO website. -_-
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby ZMan » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:32 am

I know this is a pretty early question to ask, to those that sent their resumes, any verdict? None on my end.

Thank you!
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby bort » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:37 am

Pardon my ignorance, but who was there previously and why did he/she leave?
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby thevillagetuba » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:00 am

bort wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but who was there previously and why did he/she leave?


They have had a sub for the past 6 or so years and are now auditioning for the permanent position.
Last edited by thevillagetuba on Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby CC » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:19 am

thevillagetuba wrote:
bort wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but who was there previously and why did he/she leave?


From what I have heard, he was "asked" to leave and then they had a sub for six or so years.


With all due respect, why do we feel that it's okay to publicly speculate about a persons employment? Would you enjoy that? Probably not. So please, don't do it. It's wrong and not very professional. You may find yourself on the receiving end one day. If you're interested in the position, apply. Leave it at that. Please.

Thank you.

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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby thevillagetuba » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:57 am

CC wrote:
With all due respect, why do we feel that it's okay to publicly speculate about a persons employment? Would you enjoy that? Probably not. So please, don't do it. It's wrong and not very professional. You may find yourself on the receiving end one day. If you're interested in the position, apply. Leave it at that. Please.

Thank you.

Chris Combest


My apologies, I meant no offense or disrespect to either Mr. Thornton or McTeer, who were/are fantastic musicians. My post has been edited to be more apropos.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby J Stowe » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:03 pm

With all due respect, why do we feel that it's okay to publicly speculate about a persons employment? Would you enjoy that? Probably not. So please, don't do it. It's wrong and not very professional. You may find yourself on the receiving end one day. If you're interested in the position, apply. Leave it at that. Please.

Thank you.

Chris Combest


I completely agree that bad-mouthing our peers, colleagues, etc. is a terrible practice, but sharing that someone was asked to leave doesn't necessarily reflect that person at all. Especially since Many of us do not view this as a purely professional forum. I would really like to know some information in advance before I travel thousands of miles for an audition that is not intended for a winner.

Again, I stress that I agree with caution against discussing personal matters about our tuba family, but we shouldn't shy away from stories that might help others from being put in a bad situation.

I don't mean to sound as though there is a situation at Cinncinati, I have no idea, nor do I intend to audition, but if I were, I'd love to know the real scoop.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby Porky » Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:10 pm

CC we get your point but it was not needed.Don't forget it's Tubenet and a public forum. I know if I was auditioning for a job I would want to know all the details and scoops etc. I don't see anything wrong with speculation on a forum and besides what these people are saying is accurate. They aren't taking stabs at anyone or misusing or leading people with inaccurate evidence.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby cjk » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:11 pm

Why would it take them six years to have an audition? That seems like an awful long time.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby bloke » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:15 pm

cjk wrote:Why would it take them six years to have an audition? That seems like an awful long time.


Assuming that they had a fine substitute, it may (rather) have been an awfully long time. :wink:
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby happyroman » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:04 pm

I read here on the board that they were waiting to appoint a new Music Director before appointing a Principal player.

I know that, among others, Chris Olka has been playing them when his schedule allowed, and has recorded an excellent Prokofiev 5.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby S.G.F. » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:50 pm

They have also had a second trombone position empty during that time, and the priority was given to filling that first.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby russiantuba » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:23 am

Here are some things to know, with respect to all involved.

Mike Thornton (RIP) left due to some health issues and subs were contracted out for many years. Cincinnati is a well paying group; they were saving quite a bit of money by hiring season subs, as they had to pay no benefits and such. There was a 2nd trombone position open that they wanted to fill prior, somewhere around 2011-2012, after Paavo Jarvi stepped down.

They had a season sub the last numerous seasons who lived in another state several hours away. He had also been a season sub for the NYPO years prior. I asked a player in the symphony around 2009 when/if there would be a tuba audition, and they said probably around 2012. Put yourself in the situation of the sub, waiting for a permanent audition.

Last year, Cincinnati was given a large donation that would allow them to hire a few more full-time players, tuba being one of them.

Again, this is a well paying job. Cincinnati isn't expensive to live in either. Expect people with fulltime orchestra jobs to audition for this position.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby euphoni » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:44 pm

CC wrote:
thevillagetuba wrote:
bort wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but who was there previously and why did he/she leave?


From what I have heard, he was "asked" to leave and then they had a sub for six or so years.


With all due respect, why do we feel that it's okay to publicly speculate about a persons employment? Would you enjoy that? Probably not. So please, don't do it. It's wrong and not very professional. You may find yourself on the receiving end one day. If you're interested in the position, apply. Leave it at that. Please.

Thank you.

Chris Combest


Wow, that's kind of a rude response to an innocent post.

What's wrong with wanting to know about the business dealings of a job in which people are applying? It's completely obvious that something out of the ordinary is happening in Cincy, and has for years, and it's every prospective employee's right to know as much as possible. If you don't know or don't want to know that's you, but if I'm dedicating hundreds of hours of my time and money to get me to an audition, you better believe I want to know EVERYTHING about that job and the business they do, as it directly relates to job security.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby Tom » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:10 pm

I've been watching this thread develop and have been able to hold my tongue until now.

There is so much misinformation, speculation, and rumor mill BS in this thread that it's difficult to even know where to start.

The Cincinnati Symphony has collective bargaining agreement with it's musicians. Call it a CBA, Union Contract, whatever...they have one. This document spells out way more than just how much $$$$ they're going to be paid. It includes such information as medical leave process, long and short term disability, FMLA leave, termination procedures, retirement procedures, audition procedures, and so on...

So why was there no tuba audition for several years? Here's why:

1. Mike Thornton still held the position even though there was a time period in which he was not actively performing with the orchestra. When you're out on any sort of leave, it's just that...you're not gone for good. The orchestra cannot hold auditions and hire a permanent replacement for your position, but can hire substitute musicians within the confines of the CBA procedures. If the orchestra member had tenure (he did), they cannot just simply be asked to leave or be replaced. There are procedures that must be followed and rights that the musician and management have in those sorts of instances. Mr. Thornton was exercising his contractual right to be on leave. In other words the job wasn't open for nearly as long as some folks on Tubenet seem to think it was. Mr. Thornton retired in 2009.

2. Their Music Director, Paavo Jarvi, ended his Music Director tenure there in 2011. This was announced in the '09-'10 season.

3. The CBA in Cincinnati probably stipulates that a Music Director is required on the audition committee when hiring principal (and probably all) musicians for tenure track positions within that orchestra. 99.99% of orchestra CBAs are worded to require Music Director participation in the audition process. There's probably a contract out there somewhere that does not require a Music Director for auditions, but I have not seen or heard of it. No Music Director = no auditions. An outgoing Music Director typically cannot hold principal auditions, another point often spelled out in orchestra CBAs, though it varies from orchestra to orchestra.

4. Since Music Director searches take time, there was a multi-year gap between Paavo Jarvi's departure and Louis Langree's arrival. If my point #3 is accurate (and I'm almost positive it is), this would account for several of the years with no tuba audition.

5. Louis Langree actually got to Cincinnati to begin in 2013. New Music Directors don't hold auditions on day one. They get to know the ensemble a bit, assess the needs, and then plan auditions for vacant positions. Mr. Langree, the management at the Cincinnati Symphony, and the orchestra's personnel manager then likely got together to schedule auditions. Several auditions (non-tuba) have already occurred. They're now to the point where an audition for principal tuba was scheduled.

Cincinnati not having an audition for several years has little to do with saving money, getting a particular donation (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/arts/music/a-new-labor-contract-at-the-expanding-cincinnati-orchestra.html) - although that absolutely did not hurt things, or having any particular substitute player working with the orchestra. It has nothing to do with "something out of the ordinary happening" as though there is dirt to dig or some sort of conspiracy. It was simply a matter of the various circumstances coming together at a specific point in time that created a multi-year substitute situation with no audition. Cincinnati does not have a substitute pay parity, so it's quite likey that some money was saved over the years, but again, saving money was not the motivating factor behind why things have played out the way that they have.

It isn't always a conspiracy, guys. Yeah, really. :wink: :tuba:
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby MKainuma » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:47 pm

FYI, the job listing and repertoire list are now on the orchestra's website.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby euphoni » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:37 pm

Retired since 2009??? That makes it so much worse. In what world is seven years not a long time to fill a position? The premise about there being NO time to hold an audition doesn't hold any water because to my count, there have been 2-3 Second Trombone ("Assistant Principal") auditions and numerous other auditions (Principal Clarinet, Associate Principal Flute, etc.) just within the past few years, let alone that seven year period. So, sorry, even with your assumptions based on Cincy's collective bargaining agreement, it still doesn't make sense to not fill a main position that has been open for seven years, especially since numerous other auditions, including Principal auditions, have taken place.
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Re: Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Postby anonymous4 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:59 pm

Somebody told me that the Cincinnati Symphony has language in their contract that allows them to hire a sub as a full time member if they really like him/her. Carson was "their guy" from about 2009 until earlier this year when he started a full time gig at WVU. This audition is probably to fill the vacancy he is leaving and has nothing to do with the earlier vacancy when Mike Thornton retired.

At the time, Carson was a finalist for Detroit, which had an audition about a month before Cincinnati had a vacancy. Rather than reaudition the entire tuba world, they just invited the two Detroit finalists to play in the orchestra for a while, and picked one for themselves.
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