.

[clagar777]

Wow! This is the exact chance I've been waiting for! ....Now, if I only had the "Highly Qualified" part...

Good luck with the group and keep us posted on the results!

Clay Garrett
Tyler, TX

[EuphDad]

[The Denton, TX based Brass/Funk/Jazz/ JAM ENSEMBLE
Inner City All Stars are currently looking for HIGHLY QUALIFIED TUBA PLAYER & SUB.
Tuba Player Qualification:
PERSONAL

Between the Ages of 18 – 31 ]

Is it legal for performing arts groups to set age requirements or would this be considered age discrimination?

[windshieldbug]

Is it legal for performing arts groups to set age requirements or would this be considered age discrimination?

If the group is a full time gig, I imagine it's still not illegal if they can prove it is necessary to the performance of the job...

[EuphDad]

Wnazzaro writes...
"I would imagine it's illegal. If they denied an audition based on age, they would lose in court. If they had the audition and decided they didn't want to hire someone based on something other than playing ability, like personality, they would probably be fine. Their best bet would be to allow anyone to audition, pick who they want, and not tell anyone why they didn't win."

Not being a lawyer, that was my initial thought. They can always choose who they want to invite to audition or select based on a number of criteria - written or unwritten. But since they are so blatant about posting an age requirement, I hope that what they are doing is legal. Otherwise, they may want to rethink how they post the opening. I don't know if the rules are different for paid performers. I just know I couldn't do that in my business.

[Lew]

IT is critical about the age requirements. 18-32 is what we have. In all legal matters, a person must be 21 to perform in an ensemble at any venue serving alcohol. There is nothing illegal about the age requirements because the organization is a private business and a former contract and business plan of the ensemble requires so. All legally binding!

I believe that setting a minimum age is legal, but being a private business does not eliminate the requirement to not discriminate based on age. I have worked for non-publically owned entities, and we had to meet the same non-discrimination laws as anyone else. Nobody would probably complain, but I'm not sure about the legality. I don't know how Disney can get people for positions based on how they look to try to match the look of certain characters, but apparently there are some ways to avoid discrimination issues.

I think that forcing consideration of people who don't fit these criteria is as silly as forcing Hooters to hire male "servers," but that doesn't mean that our gub'ment wouldn't try to do so.

Here are some facts about the associated law:

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/age.html

I guess that this is the loophole, but I don't know how to prove this:

The ADEA makes it unlawful to include age preferences, limitations, or specifications in job notices or advertisements. As a narrow exception to that general rule, a job notice or advertisement may specify an age limit in the rare circumstances where age is shown to be a "bona fide occupational qualification" (BFOQ) reasonably necessary to the essence of the business.

[Matt G]

bloke "whose libertarian bent yells out from within: For pity's sake, either go audition for the advertised position or leave these poor souls alone."

Agreed.

Bump for the original poster.

Besides, how many people over the age requirements would want to ba carrying a sousaphone, dancing around, and playing "Boogie Wonderland" in a bar anyhow???

Busting balls if fine, but only when appropriate and warranted.

[Joe Baker]

Besides, how many people over the age requirements would want to ba carrying a sousaphone, dancing around, and playing "Boogie Wonderland" in a bar anyhow???

Add to that "... when the rest of the group doesn't want them".

I think it's a stupid restriction, and it probably does violate EEOC rules, but there are definitely more important battles to be fought. Like lacquer vs. silver, & pistons vs. rotary, & vinegar-based barbecue vs. pit-smoked beef brisket.
__________________________________
Joe Baker, who would have leapt at the chance to do this 20 years ago, but wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole today.

[EuphDad]

I apologize if I offended anyone with my question. I raised the question out of pure curiosity (or ignorance) on whether professional performing arts groups can legally set age restrictions when posting for openings. My intent was not to
bust anyone's balls, but to understand what can or cannot be done. I was surprised to see age listed as a requirement. As I said in my post, I couldn't do this in my business.

If posting age restrictions for the group is legal - more power to them. If it is not legal, they should at least know about it. This is not a liberal or conservative issue. The law is the law.
If you disagree with the law write to Washington or Austin or wherever. Please don't shoot the messenger.

[cjk]

vinegar-based barbecue vs. pit-smoked beef brisket

The answer to that is without a doubt, "Yes"

[Alex F]

Employment law is one of my primary practice areas. I have race, sexual harassment, and age cases pending before the U.S. District Court and the Illinois Human Rights Commission. About 90% of my work is plaintiff's side but I have represented and counselled small businesses as well.

Based on the limited facts available here, mostly the advertisement, I see a per se violation of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA). In is unalwful, under the ADEA, to post advertisements expressing an age preference. The "bona fide occupational qualification" exception alluded to by someone is very narrow and the employer bears a heavy burden in establishing the existence of one. Explaining how it workd is beyond the scope of this post.

Notwithstanding, no charge could be brought with the EEOC unless the employer has 20 or more employees. Moreover, the charging party would have to be at least 40 to bring the charge. If he/she is between 31 and 40 - SOL. The ADEA applies to persons 40 or over.

If this were an Illinois employer, the result would be similar exept that the employer need only have 15 employees. I do not know what the Texas equivalent of the IHRA holds, but most state statutes generally track the federal law.

If I were to give counsel to Inner City, I would advise them to drop the age reference. They do a good job of outling what the "job requirements" are in terms of committment, style of music, travel, etc. I would never apply for this job, but if there's some 60 year old out there who can shake, shimmy, and boogy to the group's satisfaction, WHY NOT??

What it's all about is the ability to perform the job.

[EuphDad]

Alex F - Thank you for answering my question.

[Lew]

I will probably regret this, but, ummm, Euphdad, exactly how was your question answered by Alex F? Per his post, it appears that under the federal law, an organization needs at least 20 employees to be charged with age discrimination - how many employees does this musical group have? I looked at the group photo and counted 7 plus 2 members not pictured for a total of 9. As for state law, who knows, but unless I misunderstood Alex F's point, where is the violation of applicable federal age discrimination laws?

As far as I can see, nothing has been answered. If anything, my take on Alex F's well written post is that this group in all likelihood is NOT violating the letter of any age discrimination laws.

Further, where was it stipulated that membership in this group is equivalent to "paid employment?" I may have missed it, but I did not see anywhere that the members of this group are paid - did I miss something? Other than the ad mentioning that this is a "professional" group, I saw nothing about paid positions in the ad.

Regardless the question of paid employment or not, this group does not appear to be violating the law as it has been explained by Alex F.

His question was

Is it legal for performing arts groups to set age requirements or would this be considered age discrimination?

Alex answered this completely, including under what conditions it would be legal.

[Tubaryan12]

Yeah, right.

Thanks, Bloke, I was wondering when someone would bring up that example

[Mark]

...vinegar-based barbecue vs. pit-smoked beef brisket.

Since leaving Texas, I really haven't found any good barbeque joints. There are a lot around here, but the owners all seem to be from Alabama or Mississippi, where they apparenlty have no concept of good barbeque.

[funkcicle]

Further, where was it stipulated that membership in this group is equivalent to "paid employment?" I may have missed it, but I did not see anywhere that the members of this group are paid - did I miss something?

The ad specified that the applicant must be a union member or willing to join the union. That says to me that not only is this a paying gig, it's a WELL-PAYING gig. Looks like a really fun job, too.

funk"who makes on average twice as much at union gigs than self-had gigs"cicle

[Lew]

So I guess the answer to Euphdad's original question is, "it depends."

Yeah, that really cleared things up for me.

Alex confirmed that this ad is in violation of Federal law. No action could be taken unless the group has more than 20 employees (or some other number depending on local law) and if a potential applicant over 40 were to want to apply and be denied. The answer is still that the ad on its face is a violation of the ADEA. Whether it is actionable is what depends.

Whether it's reasonable that this type of limitation be illegal is another question. I think that there are legitimate reasons for this type of job criteria, but that doesn't change the law.

[Alex F]

[quote=Shakespeare was right: Kill all the lawyers...

Tubadad[/quote]

I am sure that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Saddam share, or shared, your sentiment.

Alex "making no apologies" F.

[Alex F]

Shakespeare was right: Kill all the lawyers... Tubadad

I am well aware of the context of Shakespeare's language. My comment addressed you use of the phrase.

O God . . . writing like a strict constructionist. WHAT HAVE I BECOME????

[windshieldbug]

[ThomasP]

I am speaking from sheer ignorance. If an employer can require that applicant X have a Bachelor's Degree why then can't that same employer require applicant X be 18-32 or ??-?? years of age? If I am running a business I want to be able to choose my employees. If I want everyone at my gas station to have Ph.D's then so be it. If I want them to all be 22 then so be it. The rockettes are required to be a certain height correct? Doesn't that violate the Disabilities act? Little people and dwarfs or giants and big people are discriminated against with that right?

Here's the solution to this problem, if I ever own a business, I'll contact the local, state, and federal government, and tell them to provide my business with appropriate employees. I will then hang a red flag on a pole over the door, and I'll make sure to get that same government to kick my grandmother out of her house because I want to sell tubas!!!!

Then again, I can just move to China....