Goldbrass. 24k?

[tubeast]

Then there remains the question which of a material´s properties, (malleability, for example, or the amount of internal stress...) and what value of such property will be "beneficial" to an instrument´s sound, provided there is any noticeable effect at all.

This turns us back towards the all-inspiring silver-vs-lacquer discussion, which has been thoroughly carried out MANY times on tubenet.

On phenomenon is striking me: How come there exist two individual horns in the US that have acquired such a fame ?
It´s almost as if the YORK people had worked some kind of magic into these. I´d like to know when it was that rumour started to spread about the CSO Yorks.
Right after production ?
When Mr. Jacobs became THE American tubist and made them famous ?
After his retirement ?
In case these horns had been regarded to be superior right after production, why didn´t York make hundreds of them or at least preserve the exact drawings to sell licenses to other manufacturers ?

[windshieldbug]

In case these horns had been regarded to be superior right after production, why didn´t York make hundreds of them or at least preserve the exact drawings to sell licenses to other manufacturers ?

These horns were built by ear as prototypes, I doubt that there were ever any "drawings", and the orchestral market at the time was nothing compared to the band market, so there was no money in building CC's for orchestral work. York was sold not long after to Carl Fischer Musical Instruments and the designer left the company. I have a suspicion that they knew at the time, all right, because in speaking to someone who later worked with Bill Johnson, he remembers them being talked about. Unfortunately this person was a cornet player, so the discussions didn't have much meaning to him.

[prototypedenNIS]

yellow 70/30
gold 80/20
red 90/10

depends which company... but this does give a ball park

[oldbandnerd]

bloke wrote

bloke "who wishes there was someone just like the c. 1964 AuH2O to run in '08"

GOLDWATER ..... I get it !!!! Very funny ,Joe .

[iiipopes]

Is "Rose brass" just another name for Red brass?

It can be. Or it could have a couple of percentage points more zinc. The names are descriptive, roughly, of the color that results.

[prototypedenNIS]

Is "Rose brass" just another name for Red brass?

yes and no, rosebrass is possibly easily identified to be lighter in colour to red brass which is supposed to almost look like pure copper. It would fit between Gold and Red brass, in theory.

Rose Brass however, as any of these terms, is not an industry wide standard. It is alot like the grading systems in University (even within a single university) an 80 might have gotten you an A- with one prof but it may have gotten you just a B with another.

Some companies have horns that they call red brass that have the same content as another company's rose and another company's Gold brass.

Very simply put... voodoo.

[windshieldbug]

... all that brass hoodoo, and voodoo, that you do, so well

[Rick Denney]

There definately is an effect, and although not huge, it's not subtle at all.
A french horn in yellow brass will get brassy quite a bit sooner than one in gold brass. The effect is certainly noticable.

"Subtle" for me is when the difference in sound is not noticed by a non-horn player without an explained, A-B comparison.

Rick "not equating 'subtle' with 'insignificant' or 'unmeasurable'" Denney

[Rick Denney]

In case these horns had been regarded to be superior right after production, why didn´t York make hundreds of them or at least preserve the exact drawings to sell licenses to other manufacturers ?

1. They would have made hundreds of them had there been hundreds of buyers. But at the time, the Conn marketing machine was much stronger and the Depression made the purchase of much of anything difficult.

2. Arnold Jacobs bought the instrument as a young student. He didn't become influential until many years later, when York no longer produced professional equipment in their own factory.

3. What drawings? We don't even have really good photographs of the Yorks, and they still exist.

4. Here's the real question: Would the CSO Yorks, if stolen from the CSO, relabeled as a Something Else, and offered to the market as an "old copy of the (now extinct) CSO York", gain any more consideration than the many copies of the York now being made? It is quite difficult to talk about the York qualities for most people who have never experienced them. I have played converted Yorks, and thought them quite wonderful. But I think my Holton is rather wonderful, too, at least to the extent that I can evaluate wonderfulness.

York was sold not long after to Carl Fischer Musical Instruments and the designer left the company.

Pop Johnson was with York for some years after York made the instrument for Donatelli. The instrument was made in perhaps 1930, and Carl Fischer bought York during WWII. He was there more than long enough to make more of the big CC Yorks, assuming anyone had wanted to buy them. 6/4 instruments just weren't the style in those days, as they weren't in the days that followed right up to at least the late 70's. Jacobs's influence really crescendoed in the 70's, and I think that created the first big demand for that style of instrument.

Rick "who thinks the similarity of a copy to the original is less important than its individual musical qualities" Denney