Buying New vs Used

[quinterbourne]

I am in the process of upgrading my main axe. I am looking for a real good horn that I will always be satisfied with - a life investment. I'm not interested in the "resale value" because I am not going to sell it.

What are the pros and cons to buying used vs buying new? Buying used means a reduced price, so you can buy a better horn used for the same amount of a lesser horn new.

I'm not really interested in the psychological reason for purchasing a "virgin" horn. I'm looking for technical reasons (valve wear, damage that cannot be seen, etc).

Specifically, I am looking at purchasing either a new B&S horn (PT606p or PT20p) or a used Hirsbrunner (HB2, HB20, HB21) or a used MW2000.

Thoughts?

[windshieldbug]

Buy the one that sounds and responds the best. If it's a new horn, it is not yet broken in, and may yet have the problems you speak of (look at car manufacurers- and the recalls they go through every year!). If its used, it may be cheaper, but it may also require work to inspect and "make right".

Personally, I'd choose the one that sounds and acts the way I want it to, without regard to other people's opinions (except maybe the music director... )

[MartyNeilan]

I am looking for a real good horn that I will always be satisfied with - a life investment. I'm not interested in the "resale value" because I am not going to sell it.
Thoughts?

I have said this about virtually every horn I have every owned. Gave me justification for getting out the hacksaw, drill, or torch when I knew the results might not come out looking perfect. Guess what? 2 years (or 5, 10, or 15 years) later I would wind up selling or trading the horn.

No matter how much you love your "new" horn, your playing situations will invariably change, a minor quirk will become a major nuisance, your financial situation may change, or the next big thing will come out and be endorsed by Mr. (or now maybe Ms.) TubaGod.

Although I like my current stable of horns (4/4 rotary F, 5/4 rotary CC, and dependent rotor bass bone) I know full well I could wind up making changes, additions, or subtractions next week, next year, or next decade. I highly doubt I will see next centuary.

[windshieldbug]

I highly doubt I will see next centuary.

Hey, have your head frozen. Who knows? It's been done before...

[WoodSheddin]

I'm looking for technical reasons (valve wear, damage that cannot be seen, etc).

Horns last forever. Valve wear is not an issue unless the horn is ancient.

The buying process for a used horn can be more tedius as you can't stop by a shop and try out 10 PT-6p's and pick your favorite with a back to back comparison.

Buying new costs more and gives you the psychological thrill of owning a new horn.

Honestly if you can find a used horn which you like playing, has reasonable intonation, and fits your playing situations well, then grab it up and spend the savings on extras like a bag, case, mouthpieces, metronome, music, blah blah blah.

[iiipopes]

Honestly if you can find a used horn which you like playing, has reasonable intonation, and fits your playing situations well, then grab it up and spend the savings on extras like a bag, case, mouthpieces, metronome, music, blah blah blah.

Hey! I resemble that remark! Also, if any modifications are needed, as in changing the angle of the leadpipe, position of the thumbring, etc. (we're all different shapes and sizes, like the horns), there is usually a lot less depreciation down from the purchase price on the horn if you do it to a used instrument as opposed to a new one.

[Rick Denney]

Specifically, I am looking at purchasing either a new B&S horn (PT606p or PT20p) or a new Hirsbrunner (HB2, HB20, HB21) or a used MW2000.

You might find that some of these are not substantially less expensive used than new. I don't think I can defend the notion that buying used will necessarily get you more instrument for the dollar than buying new with the list you have provided.

The PT-606P is unlikely to be on the used market any time soon, unless it's an example that just doesn't work very well.

As others have said, valve wear is not an issue even if they are worn out. You'll spend upwards of $8-11K for the tubas on your list, even used. Another few hundred dollars for a valve job seems like no big deal, if you get the appropriate discount on the purchase.

The only remaining answer is to find an instrument that plays well and buy it, used or new.

Rick "thinking that an instrument on this list selling for too little might raise a cautionary flag" Denney

[quinterbourne]

I made a slight error in my original post. I edited the post and bold-italicized the error.

I'm going to be a bit more specific about the specifics...

I am considering the following:
New PT606p from Custom - $10500 (USD for all)
*I am not looking for a used PT606
New PT20p from Custom - $8450
Used HB2, 20, or 21
- one at WWBW for $9000
- two at Baltimore Brass for $9200
- a few other private sellers in the $9000-$10000 range
Used MW2000
- two private sellers ($10500 and $11000)

I understand that the used MW2000 is not too significantly marked down from the new price, but enough to put it in my budget. New Hirsbrunners ($15000) are out of my budget, but most used (<$10000) are in my budget.

Another concern I've had (which Rick pointed out)... is the possibility that the Hirsbrunners at WWBW and Baltimore Brass company are "duds." Does anyone have any experience with these horns? Do you know the history of them (ie who owned them, why they chose to sell them). I will include links to the horns I'm referring to below.

http://www.wwbw.com/Hirsbrunner-HB21-CC ... 1011.music

http://www.baltimorebrass.net/index.php?cat=5#used
scroll down a bit to the Hirsbrunner HB20 and HB21.

Note: I do plan on testing the horns, playing a bunch of different instruments to choose the one I like the best, and all that jazz. I just like to do a bit of research first!

[joshwirt]

I've owned several tubas over the past 8 years or so and only one of them was new....a VERY good 45-SLP. But I bought it because it was the sound that I was looking for at that time and not because it was new.

Sean's right about the psychological thrill of owning a new horn...it was fun! But I wouldn't trade my current equipment for anything:

B&S F tuba (circa 1987)
Yorkbrunner (circa 2000)

Both horns were bought used and well cared for by the previous owners. I saved some money by getting these instruments, but I was willing to pay for the horn I liked best....new or used. It just turned out that these were the instruments I had always been looking for and I've never looked back.

Some of the best tubas I've ever played were older horns and not cosmetically perfect. Obviously the best of both worlds would be to have a brand new horn that was the best for you, but if I had to choose, I'd take the quality of sound over the quality of appearance ANY day.

And btw....I played on the HB-21 Hirsbrunner at Baltimore Brass at the Army Conference and thought it was a pretty good instrument. Someone else was playing the HB-20...I've always liked those better anyway. If you can make the journey, I'd highly recommend making the trek to Baltimore and trying out some of the horns there.

Good luck finding the right horn for you.

[Rick Denney]

Another concern I've had (which Rick pointed out)... is the possibility that the Hirsbrunners at WWBW and Baltimore Brass company are "duds." Does anyone have any experience with these horns? Do you know the history of them (ie who owned them, why they chose to sell them). I will include links to the horns I'm referring to below.

I would submit that when you are shopping for a $10,000 tuba, only you can evaluate them. If you can't evaluate them, then perhaps spending $10,000 for a tuba means either 1.) extravagant, or 2.) the subtle differences between the examples won't matter.

Checking the provenance is a good thing, but it can be misleading, too. Sometimes (as in the case of one 2000 for private sale that may be one of the ones you are looking at), it's for sale because the high-end performer has a surplus and has better use for the money. Sometimes, it's because the instrument is a dud. You'll have to decide that for yourself. But both Roger Lewis and Dave Fedderly will give you honest and straightforward evaluations of the high-end tubas in their stores.

Rick "who can help beginners spend under $4000, but who thinks few can help high-end players spend $10,000, especially over a public forum" Denney

[tofu]

I highly doubt I will see next centuary.

Hey, have your head frozen. Who knows? It's been done before...

The Brass Bow the only repair facility to provide Cryogenic Resonance Restorationâ„¢ on site for the past 12 years.

Cryogenic freezing is designed to not only improve the resonance characteristics of musical instruments, but enhance overall response and depth of sound. While others may offer cryogenics, none equal our overall results or come close to the experience and number of instruments processed. Our clientele include major orchestral and jazz musicians from the USA and Europe.

Perhaps the Brass Bow could freeze you and your horn. Kind of a two for one special!

[Steve Inman]

The local symphony tubist has a BBb Hirsbrunner -- evidently built at a time when the rotors were built of a material that had a different expansion characteristic than the rotor housings -- causing problems with outdoor playing in the summer time. I was surprised to hear of such an issue with a Hirsbrunner. I suppose if you planned to play outdoors in warm weather, you would want to research this issue. (Perhaps I've misunderstood and therefore misstated the issue -- but that is what I believe I heard -- from a competent tubist.)

Regards,

[iiipopes]

No, you didn't. You're exactly right. The rotors are brass encased nylon. The thin brass over the nylon acts just like a bimetal in a thermostat - gets bigger when it gets warmer at a faster rate than the solid casing. Result - sticks worse than a fried egg without oil in the skillet. HB doesn't use them anymore, but still has the gall to charge, last I heard, over $300 for a replacement of a bad design. HB's new cost as much as some small automobiles, and if it were an auto, it would have been recalled and fixed for free!

[quinterbourne]

I would submit that when you are shopping for a $10,000 tuba, only you can evaluate them. If you can't evaluate them, then perhaps spending $10,000 for a tuba means either 1.) extravagant, or 2.) the subtle differences between the examples won't matter.

Checking the provenance is a good thing, but it can be misleading, too. Sometimes (as in the case of one 2000 for private sale that may be one of the ones you are looking at), it's for sale because the high-end performer has a surplus and has better use for the money. Sometimes, it's because the instrument is a dud. You'll have to decide that for yourself. But both Roger Lewis and Dave Fedderly will give you honest and straightforward evaluations of the high-end tubas in their stores.

Rick "who can help beginners spend under $4000, but who thinks few can help high-end players spend $10,000, especially over a public forum" Denney

I do plan on testing and evaluating them myself. It's just that I'd like to know if it would be worth it to go down there and try them. Baltimore Brass is outside of driving distance, so it would entail expensive airfare. If they are "duds" then I'd like to avoid a pointless (and expensive) trip down there.

[MaryAnn]

Just a comment on shipping tubas:

The individuals I've play-tested tubas from and who shipped them, did not have packing expertise.

The large pro shops I've play-tested tubas from and who shipped them, did have packing expertise.

I'm not saying all individuals don't pack well (because I pack for that gorilla on loan from the airline baggage union, myself) or that all shops do pack well. Just what my experience has been. Those who do it a lot, tend to find out how to do it well. That bell sure was prettier before it got bent in half.

I'd like to see a section on this site on how to pack a tuba; it would save a lot of headaches of people trying to collect from UPS or DHL or Fed Ex for shipping damage. If it won't bounce down a flight of stairs unscathed, it isn't packed yet.

MA

[chronolith]

I agree about the shipping tips. It seems like an area easily glossed over by most, like it would be for shipping anything else.

The biggest mistake I have seen, and the cause of most shipping damage in my experience is not from external damage to the carton but from people not properly securing the tuba inside of its own case. If the horns moves around at all inside the case it will do more damage to itself than anything else in general. Even modest movements can screw up a horn if it is not secure in the case.

Wrap up the tuba well and put it in the case. Then wrap up the case and put it in an appropriate carton, or have somebody who knows what they are doing do it for you.

[MaryAnn]

That works well if the tuba has a hard case; however the three tubas I've received that have been damaged, were sent without a hard case.

In that case (pun intended) you really have to secure the tuba....last one I sent back, I taped the inside of the box with a heavy layer of bubble plastic (very large "bubbles," more like boxes,) paying special attention to corners and 90 degree bends. I taped several inches of bubble plastic to parts of the tuba that could possibly contact the box if the box was shaken hard enough. Then I put it in the box, bow down, and used a piece of wood and my hands to tamp peanuts down really, really tight on all sides and the top. More layers of bubble plastic went on top. If the box is not difficult to close, you don't have enough peanuts. The guy who sent it to me used a cut-down refrigerator box, and I got another one to send it back, since DHL "compromised" the first one. The box was free.

I think I remember someone saying it's a good idea to put a partially inflated volleyball in the bell to help with its integrity. I've never done that but it sounds quite reasonable.

I put This Side Up huge arrows on the box, and FRAGILE in huge letters all over it. Of course that won't matter with most carriers, who are going to do what they are going to do. Then I sent it via a trucking firm instead of the usual suspects.

It arrived without further scathing.

MA

[chronolith]

That's what I mean by "somebody who knows what they are doing". Wish everybody did it that way. I try never to ship without a case anymore for the exact reasons you mentioned.

BTW MaryAnn,

I am still mad at you for sneaking out from under me that Meinl-Weston Euphonium on that auction site a couple of years ago!

I had my little heart set on it and I lost it with 11 seconds to go.

[Rick Denney]

In that case (pun intended) you really have to secure the tuba....last one I sent back, I taped the inside of the box with a heavy layer of bubble plastic (very large "bubbles," more like boxes,) paying special attention to corners and 90 degree bends.

When I shipped a 20J, I used unused rolls of paper towel, still in its plastic wrapper, to wedge the body of the instrument between the four corners of the box. That saved a lot on bubble wrap. I'd already spent $70 for the custom boxes. When I was done, nothing on the instrument could reach the wall of the box under any potential G force. It could have been damaged, of course, but doing so would have required damaging the box, which would have made it easier to claim damages.

With a fixed bell, I would have bought a cheap plastic ball to put inside the bell, to hold the bell rim away from the carton, suspended in air.

The manufacturers put the tuba in a plastic bag and encase it in peanuts. Peanuts are cheap if you have them. Typically, they ship the tubas and the cases separately, because the case is designed for different requirements than shipping.

Rick "surprised by how cheap two 8-packs of paper towels are" Denney

[MaryAnn]

That's what I mean by "somebody who knows what they are doing". Wish everybody did it that way. I try never to ship without a case anymore for the exact reasons you mentioned.

BTW MaryAnn,

I am still mad at you for sneaking out from under me that Meinl-Weston Euphonium on that auction site a couple of years ago!

I had my little heart set on it and I lost it with 11 seconds to go.

Oh, was that you? (you mean the Bariton, right?) Sorry about that, especially since I gave up trying to play euph because it messes up my horn playing. Not embouchure but air supply; I get used to how much air it takes to play a note on the euph and then I crack everything in the vicinity on horn. For a while there I was playing euph one band, tuba another band, and horn in orchestra. My face just got too confused. I'm not even playing tuba at the time being (don't ask me why I still post here....I guess it's the company!)

MA