Old Mirafone 186

[MackBrass]

I owned a 186 SN # in the 10,000 range as my first horn in college and when I sold it I never thought I would ever buy another 186.

In my search for a quintet horn I picked up an old Mirafone 186 SN # 2520 on Monday and used it on a gig today (I have found my new quintet horn). I have never played one of these older 186 horns but I was blown away as to the sound quality this has.

When I first played the horn I thought I was playing an Alex but on a slightly smaller scale and much better intonation. The core of the sound is unlike any other Miraphone I have played, and the sound does not break up or blat.

My question is what did the company do to make such a great instrument in the 60's and why did they stop?

In my opinion this is one of the best sounding instruments I have ever played, hands down.

[Chuck(G)]

If you think the old 186 is a great instrument for quintet, get your hands on an old 184.

The old Miraphones were hand-fabricated; hammered bows, thin bells, seamed leadpipes; everything hand-fitted. (try swappiing the stop blocks around on your valves--you probably will have a tough time, because the holes will all be drilled slightly differently). No mass-production there.

Most likely if you found the 186 one serial number up, you'd find that even the braces were of slightly different lengths. Handbuilt, one at a time.

Why did they stop making them this way? I suspect a lot of it was dying off of the old Bohemian family makers and the move toward eventual East German industrialization after the war (get production up so you can get that sought-after hard currency into the DDR).

Of course, in modern reunified Germany, labor costs are probably stratospheric.

I understand that old prewar Cerveny tubas can be very very good also.

[Rick Denney]

Why did they stop making them this way? I suspect a lot of it was dying off of the old Bohemian family makers and the move toward eventual East German industrialization after the war (get production up so you can get that sought-after hard currency into the DDR).

Huh? Last I checked, Waldkraiburg was in what was West Germany. Miraphone is a crafts consortium consisting of makers who escaped Communism, but everything I see in business practices even back in the 60's and 70's suggests sophisticated western marketing skills (at least compared to other tuba manufacturers).

I suspect the biggest shift came as a result of Miraphones being successfully sold into the U.S. school market. That drove demand up above the production levels that Miraphone could support and still control costs. And they probably thought their quality model was improving because they could make service parts that actually fit.

Rick "thinking Chuck must have had B&S on the brain" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Yup, it was late, and I got my neurons crossed. Thanks for setting me straight, Rick.

But my remarks about the 184 and Miraphone construction stand--just not the politics behind it, though I suspect that the story in West Germany wasn't too different. Labor got to be very expensive in Germany after the war.

Does anyone know if Miraphone workers are members of IG Metall? I've always thought it interesting that the two logos have a distinct resemblance.

[Tim Jackson]

I have a 186 5U CC from 1960. everyone that plays it says it's the best 186 they ever played. The one big difference is the older 186s have a larger lead pipe. The horn plays much bigger and is very free blowing.

[Ted Cox]

How interesting to see my name and old horn mentioned in a post and fortunately in a good light. The serial number of my old 186 was 10,026. I bought it in 1975 for I believe $1,800 including a hard case. I was 16, got a job, financed it myself paying around 60 bucks a month for two years. I remember selling it to Brian in 1992 and have often wondered what became of it. Those horns came with the "new and improved" leadpipe which I switched out with the "old style" lead pipe. If anyone is interested in the original lead pipe, it's sitting here in my office. That horn served me well for 17 years. I sold that horn to buy a 1964 5 valve nickel-silver Alex. One of only 5 or 6 solid nickel-silver tubas Alexander ever made according to Anton Alexander. I bought it for $2,000 in 92, including the original mouthpiece and hard case. In 1964, the horn and case cost $495. Four valve horns cost $450, but for $45, you could add a valve. Mine has a rare flat 1/2 step 5th valve, which actually works quite well, (Db below the staff is perfectly in tune 4 and 5, instead of 2 and 4. I've been playing for nearly 40 years and have only owned 2 C tubas. If anyone out there knows where my old Miraphone is, I would be interested in what became of it. Hopefully it is still working and making music.

[TubaRay]

Interesting, Bill, I own a Mirafone 186 which I purchased(new) from Wichita Band Instrument in 1974. I paid somewhere between $1600 and $1700 for it. I think it is a great horn. I had to replace the leadpipe about a year ago. The old one(not surprisingly) rotted out. I believe this horn is a wonderful, all-purpose kind of tuba. I use it in many applications.

I may actually have some point of reference to your post.

[windshieldbug]

I have a 1974 Mirafone 184-4U CC that was my quintet horn for years, box stock, except for all the dents, most of which I'm responsible for. I know it's not a 186, but since we were having a Mira(x)one old home week, I thought I'd pitch in. Yes, I know where you're coming from...

[tbn.al]

I bought a very good 184 BBb about a year ago, #10,XXX which dates it to 74ish. As a Bass Trombone doubler, ie: tuba hack, it appears to be the ideal horn for my quintet use. I have onlt one complaint, having to pull the 1st valve slide a lot. I had it vented which helped a bunch. I have been thinking about adding a 5th to fix the 12 combination problem. Is this overkill? Am I going off the deep end here? I've heard the all Mirafones have this pitch issue, but I have no real frame of reference.

[MartyNeilan]

I have onlt one complaint, having to pull the 1st valve slide a lot. I had it vented which helped a bunch. I have been thinking about adding a 5th to fix the 12 combination problem. Is this overkill?

If your 12 combination is noticeably sharp on not just Mirafones but many German horns. You may want to try just using 3 instead - with the third slide out 1/4 to 3/4 of an inch it should be spot on, and that 3rd slide setting should also work for your 23 combinations.

As a side note, I have noticed that I have had to have the 4th slide way out on many 186's both old and newer, I don't know if the 184 has that issue.

[tbn.al]

I really appreciate the advice. It may be just this particular horn, but I have to pull the 3rd slide out 2 1/2 inches to tune the 23 combination. That makes the 3 sub for 12 too flat to use. I have been told that is one of the reasons for the old Mirafone flat 23 fifth valve configuration, freeing up the 3rd for a 12 sub. I have another German tuba that doesn't have near the pitch problem as the Mirafone. It's a turn of the century horn by Ernst David Bielefeld that I got from Lee Stofer. I'd play it all the time but it makes me work too hard. The Miraphone is really a remarably responsive little horn. I guess I'll just keep pulling and cussing.

[Rick Denney]

I really appreciate the advice. It may be just this particular horn, but I have to pull the 3rd slide out 2 1/2 inches to tune the 23 combination. That makes the 3 sub for 12 too flat...

Try tuning 3 for the 1-2 combination, and then find a compromise for 2 between using it by itself and in the 23 combination.

Every European performer I've seen was apparently taught to use 3 instead of 1-2, so I assume German instrument are optimized for that practice. Try assuming that's the way it's supposed to be and see if you can find a workable compromise around it.

Many German tubas have a tuning trigger on the second valve, which I suspect is for toggling between 2 by itself and the 23 combination.

My Miraphone (186 just a hair newer than your 184) is flat on the fifth partial, but if I use 1-2 instead of open on the D, then I can fix that partial with the first-valve slide. Everything else is fine.

Rick "who wouldn't mind trying out a 184 someday" Denney

[iiipopes]

First of all, if your 12 combination is not a little bit sharp, I'd wonder about the intonation for the entire horn. The math as to why takes a couple of paragraphs, so PM me if you want to know why.

I really appreciate the advice. It may be just this particular horn, but I have to pull the 3rd slide out 2 1/2 inches to tune the 23 combination. That makes the 3 sub for 12 too flat to use. I have been told that is one of the reasons for the old Mirafone flat 23 fifth valve configuration, freeing up the 3rd for a 12 sub. I have another German tuba that doesn't have near the pitch problem as the Mirafone. It's a turn of the century horn by Ernst David Bielefeld that I got from Lee Stofer. I'd play it all the time but it makes me work too hard. The Miraphone is really a remarably responsive little horn. I guess I'll just keep pulling and cussing.

Another thing you can do is pull 2 and 1 just a hair, and tune open a couple of cents sharp to split the differences.

I really appreciate the advice. It may be just this particular horn, but I have to pull the 3rd slide out 2 1/2 inches to tune the 23 combination. That makes the 3 sub for 12 too flat...

Try tuning 3 for the 1-2 combination, and then find a compromise for 2 between using it by itself and in the 23 combination.

Every European performer I've seen was apparently taught to use 3 instead of 1-2, so I assume German instrument are optimized for that practice. Try assuming that's the way it's supposed to be and see if you can find a workable compromise around it.

My Besson is made to do that, and it really makes a difference on solidity of the section when you are playing with someone who either pulls properly or has a CC tuba when you have, for example, a G whole note in the part.

Many German tubas have a tuning trigger on the second valve, which I suspect is for toggling between 2 by itself and the 23 combination.

My Miraphone (186 just a hair newer than your 184) is flat on the fifth partial, but if I use 1-2 instead of open on the D, then I can fix that partial with the first-valve slide. Everything else is fine.

Rick "who wouldn't mind trying out a 184 someday" Denney

Rudy in particular has a trigger on 2 so you can pull T, 1 & 4 as necessary and trigger 2, which opens up a lot of combinations and options of tuning and temperament depending on what you prefer to pull or leave alone. I prefer not having to do anything except only very slightly lip down 123 on my Besson. Everything else is perfect. And that is not hyperbole. That's checked. I know, that wouldn't necessarily be the best when, for example, playing with just strings or just reeds, but for the bands I play in, it's a whole sight better than playing without pulling. If I had an orchestra gig, believe me I'd have a tuba that would be the easiest to pull I could find so that I could keep the strings, reeds and trombones from looking bad.

[windshieldbug]

which dates it to 74ish... I had it vented which helped a bunch

Although I've found my 184-4U CC to have very workable pitch, it also seems to have been BUILT vented (or was vented on all 4 by a VERY good craftsperson) even though the serial number is lower.

Rick, I've found the 184 to be a great little horn, never even wished for a 5th, maybe I was lucky, but I think if you get a chance, you'll enjoy it!

[Rick Denney]

Although I've found my 184-4U CC to have very workable pitch, it also seems to have been BUILT vented...

All five valves of TubaRay's 186 CC are vented, too. But I've never seen a BBb Miraphone with vented valves. I vented the first valve on my 186 myself.

Rick "thinking factory valve vented was reserved for C tubas" Denney

[twoconnguy]

Was the numbering system the same for all of the Mirafone tubas? I have two detachable bell 186 BBb models, and one has a serial number of 1855 and the other 8773. They may be older than I thought they were!

[Dan Schultz]

Was the numbering system the same for all of the Mirafone tubas? ..... They may be older than I thought they were!

I'm in the process of rebuilding Mirafone #1735... probably made in 1961. This one came with a front-facing bell. It has plain brass slide tubes. Only the ferrules are nickel-silver. It looks like it's going to be a nice horn.

Here's a serial number list:

http://www.musictrader.com/mirafone.html

[twoconnguy]

So if we keep having discussions about old Mira's like this:http://cgi.ebay.com/MIRAFONE-4851-4-Rot ... dZViewItem, and how well they sound, will they begin to approach cultish status and corresponding value of the Yorks??

[Chuck(G)]

I'm in the process of rebuilding Mirafone #1735... probably made in 1961. This one came with a front-facing bell. It has plain brass slide tubes. Only the ferrules are nickel-silver. It looks like it's going to be a nice horn.

So the tips of the outer slides and the brace flanges are brass also? I finished working on 178x awhile ago, and there were touches of nickel beyond the ferrules.

[Dan Schultz]

I'm in the process of rebuilding Mirafone #1735... probably made in 1961. This one came with a front-facing bell. It has plain brass slide tubes. Only the ferrules are nickel-silver. It looks like it's going to be a nice horn.

So the tips of the outer slides and the brace flanges are brass also? I finished working on 178x awhile ago, and there were touches of nickel beyond the ferrules.

Yeah... just the tips of the slide tubes are nickel. The engraving on the face of the rotor caps is kinda funky, too! They look like they might have been engraved by a trainee One half has the traditional Miraphone scrolling and the other half is just 'squiggles'.