Vaughan Williams Question for Brits(UK)?

[Rick Denney]

Hey you folks over the pond, while we're thinking VW, is the VW concerto traditionally played from a treble or bass clef solo part? Do most folks these days use an Eb tuba?

Just curious.

I'm not British so I'll make a prediction of the answer and let them confirm it:

The RVW was composed in the bass clef and is routinely played there. British orchestral music has always been played as written, so far as I know. Everything I've read suggests a clear distinction between orchestral and band tuba playing in the UK.

With the exception of brass band music, the tuba part has always been in the bass clef on British music that I have seen, including works for military band composed by Vaughan Williams and Holst. That includes all orchestral tuba music.

Now, Jonathan can tell me where I have it wrong.

Rick "who has British-printed excerpts and scores for several RVW, Holst, Grainger, Britain, Delius, and Elgar works" Denney

[Locky]

What ho over there. The concerto was dedicated to the LSO and first performed by Philip Catelinet in 1954. I understand it was written for the tuba in F. Usually performed now with the Eb tuba. All sic orchestral parts for tuba are in bass clef. Brass band parts are traditionally in treble clef with the exception of the bass trombone.

John for Jonathan who is undoubtedly out performing somewhere!

[Wyvern]

John for Jonathan who is undoubtedly out performing somewhere!

Out enjoying myself rehearsing Mahler 6 (as one of the trumpets commented - almost a tuba concerto itself)!

Yes, I agree with Rick and Locky. Treble clef is only used for brass band bass parts, so the Vaughan Williams always uses bass clef parts.

Although originally written for F tuba, I have never heard it played "live" on anything but a British style EEb.

Jonathan "who is looking forward to the opportunity to perform himself in 2007"

[windshieldbug]

More to the point, have you ever heard of a treble part transposed for F tuba!?

[charlieJ]

I learned to play the "Bass" and grew up in the UK. The VW, as with all wind orchestra and full orchestral work is in Bass Clef. The Brass Band stuff is in treble clef. Naturally, this had a big impact on me as I've never been able to shake playing an EEb...but it sure is easy switching between the two!

[Ace]

Would this be the type of instrument used in the initial performance(s) of the VW Concerto?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Besson-F-Tuba-4-val ... otohosting

[Rick Denney]

Would this be the type of instrument used in the initial performance(s) of the VW Concerto?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Besson-F-Tuba-4-val ... otohosting

Yes. Catelinet used a compensating 3+1 F that is probably very similar to the one pictured.

The more common orchestral instrument at that time, however, was the non-compensated 5-valve Barlow F. That was probably the instrument more in RVW's head when he composed the work. The compensated F in the ebay ad is a bit bigger than most of the Barlow F's, some of which only had 12" bells.

Rick "thinking neither Catelinet nor Jacobs made a strong case for the compensated F in their performances of the RVW" Denney

[Wyvern]

I have once had the pleasure of trying an original British F tuba as would have been used for the RVW. It did not half seem small compared to my Besson EEb. Like midway in size between that and a euphonium. Its sound was also midway to a euph.

I understand that in the earlier part of the 20th century it was the tradition to hire ex-military band euph players for playing tuba in orchestras (Catelinet was such), so these small instruments would probably have suited them better.

I do have a picture of Catelinet with his F tuba somewhere. If I can track it down, I will scan and post. However for now here is link to James Goulay holding one (3rd from left, 2nd down)
http://www.jamesgourlay.com/photos.html

[tubiker]

Back to the original question - I've never seen a Treble Clef part for the VW let alone a transposed treble part in F.

and

There is a very interesting article in the October/November edition of the Brass Herald by Denis Wick entitled - "My friends in the Basement"

Talking about a new Tuba appointment to the City of Birmigham (CBSO) Orchestra in 1953 "we had a new tubist, Arthur Doyle. Arthur followed the older British tradition, having been a top-class euphonium player." and that " he was the first British player after Philip Catelinet, for whom it was written, to play the Vaughan Williams Tuba Concerto, in 1954. Arthur played on a smallish Boosey high-pitched Eb instrument that had been cut down by a further semitone to put it in F. Bt modern standars it was a very small sound, but better than anything anyone had heard before."

A fascinating article - The Brass Herald www.thebrassherald.com

As chance would have it, I'm off to bang through Vaughan Williams London Symphony this evening - it sits very nicely on the C, better than the last time I recall playing the piece on an old Besson Eb. A very nippy part in places with a big range - low low E up to Bb on the top of the stave. I heard Gene Pokorny play the piece last year in Chicago - a fab experience only tarnished by the Trumpet players playing the Cornet part on Long Model Cornets and not the Short Model for which the piece was written.



Andrew M

[Rick Denney]

I could swear that John Fletcher said that Catelinet did have a Barlow F. Fletch also said that they were amazing tubas.

Barry Guerrero

I'm going on the story recounted by Fred Young, who brought Catelinet over to Pennsylvania for his retirement. He claimed that Catelinet didn't use a Barlow F, but had a Besson compensating F. I have actually tooted one of those Besson compensators when it was owned by Jay Rozen, but I don't remember much about how it played.

Yes, Catelinet was an ex-euphonium player, but he was really a pianist who had played euph because there was no military musician position at the time for pianists. That store may be apocryphal, but that's how I heard it.

It's also true that Harry Barlow was a euphoniumist. And Bevan suggests that the orchestral tuba in British orchestras before that time (and after the decline of the ophicleide) was a euphonium. The Barlow F would have been seen as large in that context. And it would have been large compared to the French competition--a small French C tuba, which is really a C euphonium with six valves.

And I've heard that a proper Barlow F can play surprisingly loudly, even compared with a later compensator, but I can't even remember where I heard that.

Rick "wondering what British and French tuba players of the day thought about the kaisertubas used in German orchestras" Denney

[Wyvern]

Here is the picture of Catelinet with Vaughan Williams in 1954. I guess that is the F tuba he used for the premiere. Anyone recognize what make it is? It certainly looks small!

[cjk]

It's a Besson (or Boosey) F



http://cgi.ebay.com/Besson-F-Tuba-4-val ... dZViewItem

[peter birch]

The man who tought me euphonium when I was at school, Kenneth Britten, played bass trombone next to Philip Catelinet. I have since seen the light and am now playing a proper tuba.
James Gourlay has, of course, recently recorded it for Naxos.I have heard that during the session he recorded it on a period instrument, but that it was not released. i don't know whether that instrument was Eb or F, but it would be interesting to hear it.

[Wyvern]

James Gourlay has, of course, recently recorded it for Naxos.I have heard that during the session he recorded it on a period instrument, but that it was not released. i don't know whether that instrument was Eb or F, but it would be interesting to hear it.

I heard it was on an original F tuba. It really would be interesting to hear!

[Steve Inman]

It's a Besson (or Boosey) F



http://cgi.ebay.com/Besson-F-Tuba-4-val ... dZViewItem

Didn't you used to have one listed FS? I assume it found a good home ....

BTW -- if you did have one once, could you post your impressions of the horn?

Cheers,

[Rick Denney]

Here is the picture of Catelinet with Vaughan Williams in 1954. I guess that is the F tuba he used for the premiere. Anyone recognize what make it is? It certainly looks small!

Jonathon, thanks for posting that picture. That's a wonderful picture that I had not seen before. Where did you find it?

Yes, the look on the Doctor's face was priceless, and fits with my impression of that first recording made the day following the premiere. He is allowed his looks--he was 82 at the time.

The instrument is the same as the compensating Besson F that I played for a bit over at Jay Rozen's apartment when he lived in Austin. It did not have the large bell, of course, which was introduced apparently at Fletcher's urging to create the Sovereign model in the 70's.

Some of the Barlow F's are even smaller, with 12" bells. I recommend Cliff Bevan's book, particularly the first edition, which shows one being played by George Wall as a student. He also has a picture (in the second edition) of Stuart Roebuck with one of the larger versions of that instrument. The Barlow F's were not compensated, and had five valves in a 3+2 configuration, similar to the modern French-make saxhorn basse (which is a five-valved euphonium).

Rick "thinking the Yamaha 621 owes a lot to the Besson design" Denney

[humphrey]

I've generally heard it as Cat-er-linnay.

[eupher61]

The one conversation I had with Phillip, I said "Kat-lin-a" and he said "close enough". I didn't use his last name after that! But, yes, it was a Besson 3+1, he'd only played that and euphonium before the concerto, in addition to his piano duties at BBC. The Besson comp F is a great horn. Certainly it's not an orchestral instrument, but for solo works it's terrific.

[NickJones]

I have a Euph part in treble clef from OUP for the second movment of the RVW concerto , along with my copy in Bass Clef for the concerto , I don't think OUP do a full soloist part in treble clef , as when it is used as the concerto work in associated board treble clef tuba only goes up to grade 5 ( so you have to learn bass clef reading for up to grade 8 , Piano playing for theory exams and performing diplomas) , great piece ,played in on Eb for exams and auditions and only seen it played on Eb over here , am sure there have been perfomances on F.

[Wyvern]

Thanks Pop Korn for the insight into a world lost - very interesting!

I suppose sound concepts have been continually evolving, but have really accelarated in the last 50 years.

In his world you did not desperately need (psychologically) to be heard. You played your part and let it add to the orchestral colour. If the timps and bones drowned you - that was the composer's problem.

That is a thought provoking view. I doubt if many of us would agree with that today.