QUESTION: What came first BBb or CC tuba?

[TexTuba]

I'd usually go for chickens, but that one in the middle looks kind of scared. Eggs edge out el pollos....

Ralph

[SplatterTone]

Although it doesn't answer your question, everything you need to know about the tuba can be found here:
http://www.bandparenting.net/tuba.html

[Gorilla Tuba]

Actually, the first tuba was in F. Made by Weiprecht in Berlin.

[eupher61]

Actually, the first tuba was in F. Made by Weiprecht in Berlin.

But, that's not the question, Doug!

There's a good MM paper topic, gang. Maybe a DMA book...get your passport ready, you're goin' to Germany and the Czech Republic!

[Rick Denney]

The answer is not given in any of my tuba history books.

But my guess would be C. The Wieprecht system was in F and C, and the Cerveny rotary tuba was derived from the Wieprecht concept. It's likely that Cerveny was building among the first of the contrabass tubas.

The Sax system was in Eb and Bb with Perinet valves, and I'm reasonably sure that the first contrabass was a rotary tuba.

Rick "thinking the question was answered by about 1845" Denney

[The Big Ben]

Although it doesn't answer your question, everything you need to know about the tuba can be found here:
http://www.bandparenting.net/tuba.html

This is worth a look. I believe that the author truly understands the importance of the tuba. An excerpt:

"The modern valved tuba dates from 1842 and was developed by Adolphe Sax in a desperate (and successful) attempt to expiate his guilt for inventing the saxophone two years earlier. It is no accident that most great orchestral music was written after 1842. Modern musicologists can only wonder that 18th century composers such as Bach, Mozart and Haydn were able to write so much (more or less) serviceable music while lacking tubas."

And another:

"Pitched a whole tone higher than the BBb tuba the CC tuba has become popular among tubists who (presumably for economic reasons) frequently play in symphony orchestras. The stringed instruments used in orchestras are notoriously limited and inflexible. Most music for them has been written in sharp keys to make things easier for the players. Furthermore, string players often play sharp in an attempt to compensate for the annoying scratchy tonal quality of their instruments. Orchestra tuba players, with a generosity which reflects the nobility of their instruments, force their horns to produce notes significantly out of tune with the tuba's perfect natural intonation in order to mask the strings' imperfections."

Check it out.

Jeff "Believing every word" Benedict

[Wyvern]

But my guess would be C. The Wieprecht system was in F and C, and the Cerveny rotary tuba was derived from the Wieprecht concept. It's likely that Cerveny was building among the first of the contrabass tubas.

That would make sense. Did not the Sax series of instruments originally stop at Eb as the lowest pitch with BBb only being added later. If BBb was already in use, then surely Sax would have included from the start?

The question which occurs to me is - Why in that case did Germanic/Czech countries adopt BBb, rather than not stay with CC?

[jon112780]

This just made my day

Orchestra tuba players, with a generosity which reflects the nobility of their instruments, force their horns to produce notes significantly out of tune with the tuba's perfect natural intonation in order to mask the strings' imperfections."

ha ha ha ha...

[Rick Denney]

That would make sense. Did not the Sax series of instruments originally stop at Eb as the lowest pitch with BBb only being added later. If BBb was already in use, then surely Sax would have included from the start?

The question which occurs to me is - Why in that case did Germanic/Czech countries adopt BBb, rather than not stay with CC?

I believe that the F was the lowest instrument in the Wieprecht system and the Eb was the lowest in the Sax system for some time, and I agree that Sax would have never let Wieprecht have a lower instrument in his "system".

As to why the BBb is the standard contrabass in Germany now, I cannot say for certain. I would suspect that the C contrabass tuba was never really a standard, even if it was the first contrabass tuba. The contrabass was a specialty instrument that was rarely used. Most mid-19th-century music that includes the tuba was clearly written for the bass tuba. I suspect it wasn't until Wagner specified "Kontrabasstuba" that the specialty instrument was given a wider identity. By that time, the Wieprecht system was gone from the scene, Sax (an excellent marketer) was still riding high, and the Graslitz-area rotary tuba makers (like Cerveny) were probably competing against Sax's designs.

Clearly, the Sax designs dominated in France, the British Empire, and to a lesser extent the United States. But even in the U.S., the rotary concept came in and forced a convergence of designs. The front-action piston tuba is one such, and the over-the-shoulder rotary Saxhorn is another. One of my curiosities is who first made the front-action piston tuba, and who first used it. All the 19th-century American orchestras seem to be pictured with an Eb, top-action piston tuba if they have a tuba at all. The first famous tuba player to be shown with something different was Helleberg, with his Sander rotary C tuba, around the turn of the last century.

But even then, the Bb/Eb Sax concept dominated the market.

The mid-19th century was the age when practical valves were new and the focus was on creating a system of brass instruments to cover all registers. Sax was the supreme marketer of this concept, and Wieprecht, despite getting there first with a true tuba, never really made it out of Prussia.

Rick "noting Bevan's report that the transition from ophicleide to orchestral F tuba in England probably went through a euphonium" Denney

[windshieldbug]

I have no idea when it might have first happened overseas (which is where it must have REALLY first happened), but I believe my little Conn stencil Eb (3 front pistons) is from the beginning of the 1900'2 or just before (I have seen pictures of similar horns that have been dated to then).
Most of the really old Eb's that I have seen have been top action. Was Conn the first?

First, the front action was also know at the time as "American action". It happened c. the 1880's as piston-valved horns replaced the American string-action horns. Top Action Rotary Valves became top-action pistons, while the Side Action Rotary Valves became front-action.

Secondly, until Conn sold out, retired, and became Conn, Ltd. in 1915 he was vehemently anti-stencil, so any Conn stencil couldn't be older than 1915.

[Gorilla Tuba]

I believe the first Cerveny Contrabasses were made in both CC and BBb (I can't remember if the souce of that information was Clifford Bevan's book or from a paper by Keating Johnson)

[The Big Ben]

One of my curiosities is who first made the front-action piston tuba, and who first used it. All the 19th-century American orchestras seem to be pictured with an Eb, top-action piston tuba if they have a tuba at all.

I have no idea when it might have first happened overseas (which is where it must have REALLY first happened), but I believe my little Conn stencil Eb (3 front pistons) is from the beginning of the 1900'2 or just before (I have seen pictures of similar horns that have been dated to then).
Most of the really old Eb's that I have seen have been top action. Was Conn the first?

"The one that got away" for me was an 1889 Conn Worchester BBb with front action valves (3) that sold here eight or nine months ago. It was a neat little horn in fair shape for its age and went for $500.

So, there was some visual evidence that there was at least one front action BBb in 1889.