Willson 3400 low register fingerings

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:08 pm

What are other 3400 players using below A below the staff?

I'd hoped to be able to use 45 for Ab, but that's too flat so I have to use 14 with a large 1st slide pull. I'd hoped to use 234 on G but have to use 245. Maybe my 3400 is unusual?

Has anyone tried shortening the 5th valve?

Thanks,

Cam

Rob Wilson · Post by **Rob Wilson** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:12 pm

I find that you can use too large of a mouthpiece with the 3400. When using the MF #3B or the Bear CC I could not get the fingering with the 5th valve in tune (too flat). Once I switched to either the MF #2 & #4 or Bear F the intonation was spot-on with the exception of the low F. I have been using the Jon Sass Titanium for the past year and it works great. When I contacted Ivan (spring 2005) to have my Bear F throat opened up and the bowl made a little deeper he (Ivan) suggested that I wait because they were designing for Jon Sass with the same requirements. I like the sound and flexibility of the Sass. This a different answer to the problem, than you suggested, however, I hope this helps.

Slides pull set-up is:
Main 1 3/8 inches
1st 3/4 of an inch
2nd 0
3rd 3/4 of an inch
4th 3/8 of an inch
5rh 3/8 of an inch

The fingering that I use is:
Bb 4
A 235
Ab 45
G 234
F# 1245
F 1345 (flat 7c)
E 12345
Eb 0

Rob W <><

TonyZ · Post by **TonyZ** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:20 pm

I use a Marty Erickson ME 1 and here are my low fingerings (short 5th slide):

Bb-4
A-2,4
Ab-4,5
G-2,4,5
Gb1,2,4,5
F-2,3,4,5
E-1,2,3,4,5

Sometimes the fingerings change due to the situation. Even if you come up with something unusual, it's OK if it works. Have you tried using the 5th valve extender for another set of fingerings??

Good Luck

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:38 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm using a Laskey 30F or MF4H. I didn't get a longer 5th slide wtih mine. Interesting how slides are set up for different people and situations isn't it? My slide setup is

Main 3/4"
1st 3/4" - fully in for bottom line G & Ab, out 1.5" for 2nd space C
2nd in
3rd 1.5"
4th 1.5"
5th in

They must have tucked the 4th slide inside the top bow so it didn't stick out and add to the bulk of the tuba, but I wish they hadn't as it limits the length of the top 4th slide.

Re the 2nd space C - when trying a LM-15 the C is much better in tune, I might try bloke's suggestion and get a larger (LM7) rim for it.

No fingerings are unworkable, but they can be a handful at times like VW4. I was just hoping I could use a similar set as my CC on the equivalent harmonic series.

Cam

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:50 am

Rob Wilson wrote: ...
Slides pull set-up is:
Main 1 3/8 inches
1st 3/4 of an inch
2nd 0
3rd 3/4 of an inch
4th 3/8 of an inch
5rh 3/8 of an inch
....

cambrook wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I'm using a Laskey 30F or MF4H. I didn't get a longer 5th slide wtih mine. Interesting how slides are set up for different people and situations isn't it? My slide setup is

Main 3/4"
1st 3/4" - fully in for bottom line G & Ab, out 1.5" for 2nd space C
2nd in
3rd 1.5"
4th 1.5"
5th in
....

I'm assuming that the 4th and 5th valve tubing is the same length on both of your horns. It may not be and it's difficult to accurately measure.

To play Ab utilizing fourth and fifth valves, Rob is out 6/8" total and Cam is out 12/8". Cam is flatter which makes sense.
(I added the amount both 4th and 5th slides are pulled out)

I am not familiar with the Willson E-flat tuba. I have played a Willson CC and (if I remember correctly) I found the fourth valve D and G to be pretty different pitch-wise. I think the D was always sharper in relationship to the G, IE, if you tuned the D, the G was flat; if you tuned the G, the D was sharp.

This characteristic is not out of the ordinary. I think that most folks address it by:
-splitting the difference on the fourth valve slide and lip a bit
-or play the flatter one 1+3 and pull 1.
-play the sharper one 1+2+5

I do not know if the E-flat has similar issues. Maybe it does and one of you is tuning the fourth valve to the F and the other the BBb. Maybe Rob is tuning one 4th valve note and Cam is tuning the other? Or maybe one of you guys is tuning one note and the other is splitting the difference?

Hope this helps,

Christian

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:14 am

The low Ab is too flat on 4/5 even when both slides are all the way in. I have the 4th out about 1.5" as a general position, which allows me to use 1/4 (with 1st pulled about 3") for the low Ab.

Sorry, I should have been clearer before. I suspect that bloke is correct, that the 3400's are pretty consistent and benefit/need some different fingerings in that region.

Thanks,

Cam

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:24 am

1/2/4 is too flat when all slides are in

Thanks

Dean E · Post by **Dean E** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:03 am

cambrook wrote:What are other 3400 players using below A below the staff? . . . .

For the Ab, I'm curious how a big, fat, open, false tone would sound?

I assume the Willson 3400 was not designed with false tones in mind.

bill · Post by **bill** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:07 am

Well, I am the odd guy out here. I have been playing a Willson 3400 for years and find it plays very well in tune BUT I also use the long 5th valve slide and find I have a lot less trouble than is being reported here, below A. For purposes of relating general experience, I am careful to use a Euro Shank mouthpiece and currently do solo work with a G-W Churada and ensemble work with a G-W Matanuska. I practice with a Korg tuner on, most of the time. I don't think giving my fingerings would do any good, so I won't but the horn plays in tune. The comment about using a rather small mouthpiece is quite accurate, in my experience.

Richard Armandi · Post by **Richard Armandi** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:17 pm

When I got my Willson Eb back in '95 I had the exact same issues, Cambrook. I had the 5th slide cut so I could get Ab in tune with 4&5, and had a gizmo made to throw the slide out a couple of inches so G (245) and F (2345) would be in tune. Gb (345) doesn't require throwing out the slide at all, and low E (12345) requires only about 3/4" of throw.
Otherwise I never have to pull/push any slides... they are superb instruments.
Hope this helps.

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:31 pm

Hi Richard, how much did you cut off the 5th slide? I'd love to see a picture of your trigger, any chancce you could post one or send it to me?

Thanks,

Cam

David Spies · Post by **David Spies** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:28 am

At first when I acquired my 3400, I had similar issues with intonation, using a Perantucci 25S (old system) and a Mirafone C4. The ME1 that I had received with the horn was too large for me, even though it was designed for the instrument.

I then decided to try the ME2. It resolved a great deal of my intonation issues to the point where I was comfortable making any slide adjustments on the fly.

John Stevens designed the longer 5th valve extension for the 3400 in order to use it much like a 5th valve on the Miraphone instruments (flat 23). Some i have talked to love it, others find it cumbersome and prefer the regular slide.

I use the regular slide myself, although I have tried the other slide for extended lengths of time. I find the longer slide occasionally helpful if I'm playing the instrument on a concert with significant lower register work.

Perhaps that may help your (and anyone else's, for that matter) situation.

My humble 1.5 cents.

Dave Spies
Willson Tuba Quartet

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