Compensating Contrabass Tubas

[Glaucon]

Hey all,

Does anybody know anything about compensating (especially CC) tubas? Are these made anywhere? Why aren't they more popular?

I think I remember playing on a compensating Hirsbrunner CC when I was in high school -- I remember that it was very, very heavy. However, I can find no more mention of these horns. Did they ever really exist?

Thank you all very much for your time.

[iiipopes]

Current makers of compensating tubas (in no particular order):
Besson (in its resurrected form)
Willson
Yamaha
Miraphone
London Musical Instruments
York ("new" factory by that name, mostly in the UK)
Courtois
Hirsbrunner
Mr. Tuba (Mark Carter in the UK, made by M-W)
possibly the Virtuosi brand (beginner/intermediate store brand for JP Brass & First Brass as a joint venture, made in China, again in the UK)

As you can see when you look them up on their respective websites, most, if not all, of them are catering to the UK brass band market, and you see very few of them in the USA, unlike compensating euphs. As far as I know, only the BBb and Eb 4-valve versions are made, albeit with slightly varying bore sizes and other cosmetic details, but all with the 3-valve up, 4th valve w/ left hand configuration, save possibly the Pat Sheridan Besson Eb, if it's still being made.

Another item to be aware of is with the 4-valve configuration, you still have the same intonation issues as with a conventional tuba for all single valve notes and partials, and 1-2 and 2-3 combinations. On the 4-valve comps, unlike a 3-valve comp, the only real benefit of the 4-valve comp is to get 2-4 and other combinations that use the 4th valve in tune, which usually means the low notes descending towards the "true" pedals. On a 3-valve comp, since the comp tubing is based off that 3rd valve, you don't have to pull 3 to get 2-3 in tune, so you can use 3 alone instead of 1-2 to have a true equally tempered minor third down and not have to lip 1-2 or compromise the tuning by pulling the slides marginally.

OTOH, the 3-valve comp setup, if you don't need the near-pedal tones, gets you theoretically perfect intonation on everything but 1-2-3 Bnat and low Enat, which is no more sharp than 2-4 on a "conventional" 4-valve tuba, and so very lippable.

There is one more item: Hirsbrunner made a few 3-valve rotary comp tubas, with double-decked rotors, for use in some Swiss and German bands and other places that, as I understand it, actually at the time mandated 3-valve tubas to save weight when marching:



Are you sure it was compensating? Did it have pistons or rotors? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that 1) I don't know of any other HBs of that configuration, and 2) to a younger player, any horn that has 4 valves and a tight wrap that actually plays in tune can be mistaken for a comp, and would definitely be heavier.

[eupher61]

I've seen the US patent for double-deck rotors by Hirsbrunner.

[Wyvern]

OTOH, the 3-valve comp setup, if you don't need the near-pedal tones, gets you theoretically perfect intonation on everything but 1-2-3 Bnat and low Enat, which is no more sharp than 2-4 on a "conventional" 4-valve tuba, and so very lippable.

The trouble is, nearly all modern brass band music requires 4 valve BBb to covered the written low range.

One manufacturer missing from your list is B&S. They make the 3181 compensating EEb.

[iiipopes]

Thanks.

[Glaucon]

Thank you all for your responses.

Though it was a long time ago, I am fairly sure that the horn was a 4-valve, front action compensating horn. I know that it was in CC and I remember the valves having a VERY long throw on them, but that is what it is...

Is there anywhere listed that makes a 4 valve front-action comp CC? I can't find one anywhere...

I am simply very curious about these horns. It seems like it might make life a lot easier in the low range, though I know the grass is always greener...

[iiipopes]

It depends on which shade of green you're after. If you're after precise equally tempered intonation, yes, having a comp valve block that automatically adds the extra tubing is a good thing. But the trade off is that with all that extra path through the loops, it can get stuffy, even if it's well engineered, well built, and well maintained.

Even then, these are the only two practical issues that a 4-valve comp BBb tuba fixes, because 99% of the literature just doesn't go any lower:

1) 2-4 E nat and B-nat are a shade sharp, but lippable
2) 1-4 Eb is sharp. Some pull 1, others get a 5th valve, some play the "false" open, and unless you're doing really heavy orchestral or the heaviest of concert band music, you don't see it or anything lower.

[olaness]

In brass bands you regularly see lower writing than that, and a good number of low B naturals, which will sound pretty pointless as false pedals if you do that at the bottom of a section of four tubas. Having the four compensators does make a major difference there.

I also seem to remember having tried a 4 valve rotor compensating F once, by Hirsbrunner. Not a very versatile instrument tho, as to the best of my ability I could not get a round, gentle tone out of it at high volumes, only a fat bark. Although very entertaining, that kind of sound has got very limited use in classical playing and buying an instrument to get that rip you can quite easily get out of another instrument with a bit more effort seems rather a waste of money to me.

[iiipopes]

Oh, to have an opportunity to play in a brass band...

Anyway, with all those lower notes in brass band, are they written in the traditional transposed treble clef notation with all ledger lines, or is there an 8va or other designation to the notation on those low parts?

[Wyvern]

Anyway, with all those lower notes in brass band, are they written in the traditional transposed treble clef notation with all ledger lines, or is there an 8va or other designation to the notation on those low parts?

Usually written with all ledger lines, which of course is not so many in transposed treble clef

[iiipopes]

Thanks.

[iiipopes]

Read my signature. The lowest note is 123 E nat, which is 123 F# below the treble clef in brass band transposed notation. "False" pedals, as on other tubas and especially on good Conn souzys, from the Eb down to the "real" pedal BBb, are simply nonexistant in any reliable form. From what I've read here and on the British forums and sites, that lower limit is exceeded regularly. So my beloved 3-valve comp is obsolete for anything except USA high school, community, and all but the most "symphonic" of college concert band repertoire, which still, for 99% of the time, does not go below concert F 4 ledger lines below the bass clef.

[Wyvern]

Special question,may be a little bit off topic,how far can somebody get in a traditional british style brassband on a 3V BBb compensator?

Think Boosey&Hawkes Imperial 3V BBb.........,in a schools brassband.......

question especially to Neptune but other people´s suggestions welcome!!!

regards,
Kurt

Hi Kurt,
I actually played a 3 valve Imperial BBb for many years in a brass band in the past. It is sufficient to cover most older music, but over the last 35 years, composers have increasingly written BBb bass parts with the expectation of them being played on a 4 valve compensated BBb. A 3 valve would still be accepted (and continue to be used) in youth bands and lower section bands. However, nothing less than a 4 valve would be considered in any serious contesting band.

Jonathan