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[winston]

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[imperialbari]

The question is impossible to reply for at least the 3 first categories, where there were no tubas. Which in turn implies, that no music was written for them.

According to my knowledge there only are one or maybe two orchestras playing the early Romantic era repertory on period instruments. They probably would use copies of Wieprecht, Cerveny, Stowasser, or Sax tubas depending on the composer and the environment he worked in.

Even if noisemakers like cymbals, bass drum, trombones, and the tuba were introduced into the early romantic orchestra, that orchestra was not loud by modern standards.

Since then all orchestral instruments have undergone design changes to make them louder. Changing parameters like timbre and transparency very much along the road.

Today you will hear less differences between national and regional styles, than you would during my youth 40 or more years ago, where music was something heard on radio. Admittedly some of these styles were plain bad playing (Danish provincial orchestras had terrible strings and the trumpets always were late on the big tutti chords. Swedish horns started all notes too flat and below the given dynamic level and then repaired that through the first half of the note values).

As for choosing a tuba in Romantic repertory today, the first parameter will be to adapt to the style of your orchestra. But I find, that there must be at least one parameter more: is the tuba part working on its own, or is it "just" providing the fundament of the trombone section.

Vienna had a small and quite bright F tuba, which matched the old style German trombones with small bores, but huge bell diameters, quite well. That was what Brahms wrote for, even if he was born far north of Vienna.

This forum has discussed the choice of tuba for Berlioz, and probably will continue to do so.

Verdi definitely preferred the cimbasso as the bottom of the section. And so did Puccini most of the way.

In newer repertory everybody again should adapt to the orchestra. And within that frame selection parameters could be these:

Soloist function or fundamental function?

If fundamental, then mostly with the trombones or mostly the fundament of the full ensemble? The last parameter would indicate the larger tuba. ( I have seen a tuba player bring an F and a CC on the stage for Pictures, and Bydlo still was played by the 1st trombonist on a Conn 24I; all well fitting the performance by a large modern orchestra).

And the same actually goes with the old music also.

If you are playing a transcription of a dance suite with much forth and back between sections and tutti, a full tuba sound emulating a 16' organ stop maybe would be fine.

If you in a quintet play a fantasia originally written for 5 well balanced viols, then everything is about not burying the inner voices in too much and too fat tuba sound.

Just scratching the surface.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

Looking over old excerpts, I was curious about the types of horns that were utilized in each time period by composers. Also from experience, what people find to be the best type of horn to use when playing music from a specific period.

Renaissance
Baroque
Classical
Romantic (my favourite)
Impressionistic
20th century (yuck)

Klaus already said that the tuba was not invented before the middle of the Romantic period.

The instruments used until about 1900 tended to default on a smallish bass tuba (in F or Eb). The contrabass tuba (in C or Bb) was used when needed. At the turn of the last century, contrabass tubas because more popular. Since that time, orchestras have gotten louder and have developed a more powerful sound, and tubas have gotten bigger and more powerful to keep pace. This trend happened first in the U.S., hence the contrabass tuba became the standard orchestral instrument here before elsewhere. In Europe (including England but not France), the F tuba was the standard instrument until several decades ago, and it still is in many orchestras on the Continent. French tuba players used a euphonium in C with six valves until a few decades ago.

Thus, most Romantic music was written with the sound of a smaller bass tuba (in F or Eb) in the composer's mind, except where a larger instrument was specifically called for (i.e., when Wagner called for the Kontrabass Tuba). Most impressionistic music likewise. 20th-century music was the first to explore the power of newer, louder orchestras. Of course, much impressionistic music was composed in the 20th century, so there are no hard lines.

It's better to think of specific examples. All 19th-century composers except for Wagner (and then only when requested) were probably expecting an F or Eb tuba when they called for a tuba. 20th-century composers such as, say, Prokofiev and Shostakovich were probably expecting a bigger horn to be used. Those in between, such as, say, Mahler probably saw the transition, and have some parts that clearly lie on the smaller instruments, and some that work better in todays louder orchestras on bigger instruments.

The question of what horn to use requires an understanding of the orchestra's artistic goals as much as the composer's. Bruckner, for example, would clearly have been written for a smaller tuba, but it would also have been written for smaller trombones and trumpets, too, plus a whole variety of other instrument technologies that made less sound. Few modern orchestral tuba players (at least in the U.S.) would play most Bruckner on their F tuba.

Vaughan Williams is another example. The Barlow-style F tuba was the standard British tuba when he wrote his 4th Symphony, which is an extremely powerful sounding work. I don't know any orchestras pro in the U.S. who would use a small F today--they'd use their biggest instrument, and be exhausted when they got the end.

But most orchestra players would use smaller instruments for certain works just because the smaller instrument has the right sound. This is the sort of thing that has be studied and decided work by work, not period by period. And the sound and objectives of the orchestra's conductor weigh heavily in the decision.

For Renaissance, Baroque, or Classical, play something that makes musical sense with the knowledge that you are interpreting the structure of the music with a modern tone color. No other standard can be used, unless you are doubling the string bass (in which case play something that sounds like a string bass) or the trombone (in which case play a trombone).

Rick "who suggests that the more you experience you have listening to music of the Romantic, the more you'll appreciate what came after" Denney

[Rick Denney]

play something that makes musical sense

I dunno....saying it is impossible to answer the question because tubas didn't exist way back when makes no musical sense

saying that there are no longer stylistic differences between major ensemble-types world-wide may well be true, but the homogenous sound of orchestras throughout the world as far as how you as an individual approach playing an excerpt is irrelevant, a distraction, and makes no musical sense.

Made you look!

When playing Bach in brass quintet, no tuba is "accurate". But a Yamaha 621 is better than a Holton, because it makes more musical sense. It is lighter and imposes less presence on the ensemble so that the structure of the music remains clear.

Playing that same Yamaha in Mahler's 5th would make no musical sense, because the music depends on the big, dark, brooding sound of the tuba to finish the descent of theme from the high trumpet.

I did not say there are no longer stylistic differences between ensembles. I said the artistic objectives of an ensemble and its conductor weigh heavily in the choice of instrument for a particular work. That is necessarily an individual choice and decision, and it is made for musical reasons.

Playing excerpts for your teacher without the context of a real orchestra on a real stage with a real (or at least what passes for real) conductor can only go so far. At some point, you have to take what your teacher says and make your own musical sense of it.

But my point was that choosing an instrument based on stylistic period to which the music belongs is like a painter saying he can't use Brand X of brushes because Monet didn't have those available during the Impressionist period.

Rick "thinking that historical accuracy never trumps music-making" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

Vaughan Williams is another example. The Barlow-style F tuba was the standard British tuba when he wrote his 4th Symphony, which is an extremely powerful sounding work.

VW and his pal Holst were very well aware of the BBb contrabass tuba, at least in the context of military bands. The lower octave of VW's Tocatta Marziale and Holst's own band transcription of the Planets are some examples of tuba parts obviously written for BBb. One has to wonder if they ever considered using that weightier sound in the orchestra.

[imperialbari]

The lower octave of VW's Tocatta Marziale and Holst's own band transcription of the Planets are some examples of tuba parts obviously written for BBb. One has to wonder if they ever considered using that weightier sound in the orchestra.

I am convinced they did make such considerations.

But I am also convinced that they considered, that their music would not be played that often, if they stretched the "extra's" account of too many orchestral budgets.

Not all orchestras had BBb tubists themselves, even if such ones very likely could be recruited from a military band residing just around the next street corner.

Modern approaches to embouchure have made low brass doublings more common. Older types of doubling were more about making the best out of more genres.

For several decades of the previous century one of the most common doublings in my country was that of violin and tenor saxophone.

A remarkably fine musician doubled on tuba and French horn, but he was an exception.

A truly surprising double was, when I heard Anne Sophie Mutter sit down at her grand piano. My jaw dropped down in the basement even if my TV is in the 3rd story.

Klaus

[MartyNeilan]

VW and his pal Holst were very well aware of the BBb contrabass tuba, at least in the context of military bands. The lower octave of VW's Tocatta Marziale and Holst's own band transcription of the Planets are some examples of tuba parts obviously written for BBb.

Are we starting to think that VW and Holst would re-arrange or write whole works around the tuba parts or a particular pitch of contrabass tuba????

Of course I am not saying that, but if the F tuba was the only tuba they knew of and wrote for, it is doubtful that such skilled orchestrators as Vaughan Williams and Holst would write parts in such a low tessitura.

BTW, Holst himself DID completely re-arrange / rewrite the planets for military band. Mars and Jupiter are a nice workout for tuba players.

[Jonathan Cruz]

BTW, Holst himself DID completely re-arrange / rewrite the planets for military band. Mars and Jupiter are a nice workout for tuba players.

Actually, I belive it was one of Holst's students who arranged the band works of the Planets. Holst oversaw the progress. But I could be wrong. Can any Holst scholars verify?
Jonathan Cruz
BBb Bass
Brass Band of Central Florida

[Chuck(G)]

I'm surprised that Klaus didn't mention my baroque tuba. Here's a photo of it next to a Willson 3400 Eb. The little guy's in BBb:

Side by side

[winston]

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[imperialbari]

I'm surprised that Klaus didn't mention my baroque tuba. Here's a photo of it next to a Willson 3400 Eb. The little guy's in BBb:

Should have remembered it, most certainly, as I think it was me, who told you of that sale. The seller didn't know what it was, so I seem to remember that the price was rather reasonable.

Finke made a whole line of narrow bore and small bell valved brasses to be used in baroque music. If there ever were made any anachronisticae, then these. I find the very idea questionable even if the instruments are well made.

Chuck's BBb sample may be slightly more conical and with a narrower leadpipe and bore than a BBb cimbasso, but the concepts are not too far apart.

In my galleries I have some photos of the narrow Finke brasses, also some detail shots of Chuck's sample. The photos are stored in Yahoo groups, which are free and open for all to join. Go for full membership, and if you get an error message right after joining, then please return to the original photo link.

From the gallery index:

Thumbnails of 3 Finke narrow bore and narrow flare Bb 3RV trumpets allegedly intended for the performance of baroque music:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... rumpet+3RV

Thumbnails of a Finke narrow bore and narrow flare Bb 3RV valve trombone allegedly intended for the performance of baroque music:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... +flare+3RV

Thumbnails of a Finke narrow bore BBb 4RV tuba allegedly intended for the performance of baroque music:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/yo ... b+tuba+4RV

The links have been tested from the preview page of this forum. They all work as intended.

Klaus

A later added PS:

Found a couple of text files on the narrow bore Finke BBb, converted them to .pdf format, and placed them here:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... Bb%20tuba/

[imperialbari]

Hey Chuck, was your Willson worth the money you paid for it? I'm buying a new horn and i'm strongly leaning towards the Willson.

You know what?

Folks in Chuck's league don't pay money beyond the shipping costs, when they want a new toy like this Willson.

Klaus

[MartyNeilan]

Actually, I belive it was one of Holst's students who arranged the band works of the Planets. Holst oversaw the progress. But I could be wrong. Can any Holst scholars verify?

I am far from a scholar of anything, but I have a copy in front of my that only names Gustav Holst. It is copyright 1924 Boosey & Co. It is always possible that a student did the bulk of the work and Holst took full credit, that was standard practice during earlier eras of composition.

[Chuck(G)]

Hey Chuck, was your Willson worth the money you paid for it? I'm buying a new horn and i'm strongly leaning towards the Willson.[/code]

I like it a lot--it's a great all-purpose horn. I use it in quintet, brass band and tuba ensemble. It'll never take the place of a big CC or BBb, but it plays better than most Fs. Your mileage may vary, but it's definitely worth considering.

[winston]

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