Finding the Rythmic Middle

[Matt Walters]

The post on keeping an even rythm is great, but there is a side subject where I also have a problem and would like to hear how others cope with it.

I play in a mediocre community band. It's a fun group with a wonderful conductor. The average music does not require much pratice on my part to carry my share of the load. As I've posted before, being around this stuff 9-12 hours a day, leaves me not wanting to go home and practice as would be needed to do my share in a more advanced band.

Between what the conductor is indicating with his stick waving, what the drums are doing, the consensous of most of the band, and then the God aweful rubato the saxaphones insist on should they have any hint of a melody, how do I fit my part in? If I follow the conductor who is trying to get the band to catch up, I'm ahead of the band and then the rest of the band falls apart. If I blend in with the band, it's "tubas, you're dragging the beat".

There's no mention of the drums and those darn saxaphones. Sure, sometimes the tubas are dragging, but the other 80% of the time, I can hear others further behind than us. Still, it's the tubas that get the blame.

Does anyone else get frustrated the tubas get the default blame for anything rythm? I've seen this in about every band. Plowing half a beat ahead to push the entire band from the tuba section sounds just as bad as those who stomp their feet to show the band is slowing down.

Even in better bands, there have been times when it's been a guess as to which other section to tempo with to keep things going on a concert date. You ones who play only in great groups, will not have compasion with the desire to make things work so that everyone has a good time in community band.

Thoughts on this subject? Well, back to work for me. Surely the solder joints are cool and the penetrant has had enough time to do it's job.

Matt

[Chuck(G)]

You're right--a bad percussionist can really throw a wrench into things. Still, bad or good, it's best to stay with the drummer--or make sure that the drummer stays with you.

[joh_tuba]

This is a great topic!

I think this is an issue in most any group of any caliber. It just presents itself in different ways at different times.

My solution is to always stay right on the stick of the conductor. Leading by example seems the best solution. It might not happen right away but eventually everyone will have to learn to stay with you and as a result play with the conductor. When the group falls apart it then becomes the job of the conductor to fix the problem. At that point it's nice to know you are part of the solution instead of just continuing to add to the problem.

If the problem is *still* not being addressed I would talk privately/respectfully with the conductor. Likely he/she is aware of the problem and maybe just doesn't quite know what to do about it without hurting someones feelings.

My thoughts FWIW.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I think that there are two prevailing problems that we face:

1. There is a slight delay between the time we play the note, and when it sounds (the exact about of time varies somewhat from horn, to horn). I try to stress with students, that they should guide their timing by listening to when the note comes out of the bell, and not by when they play it.

2. Different "grooves" in music, create different demands on the bass line, and where it's notes are placed, in relation to the beat. If you listen to recordings of the Basie band, on up tempo, cookin' tunes, the bass is actually playing ahead of the drummer! In balads, the bass generally is OK, if it is a little behind the beat. When you factor all of this together, with point #1, you begin to realize what a complicated situation we face, in terms of keeping time for a group.

It is up to all tuba players, to use our musical instincts, to figure out what works best for any given musical moment.

[Rick Oakes]

This problem exists with any conducted ensemble. One should play with the conductor. The only question should be where the beat is placed on the pathway of the baton since this varies between conductors. The conductor should then point out any sections or individuals not playing with the beat. Factoring in the acoustic and geographic arrangement of the performing environment can be a challenge for all.-- Rick Oakes (mainly cello but playing some tuba)

[scottw]

Matt summed it up: "If I follow the conductor who is trying to get the band to catch up, I'm ahead of the band and then the rest of the band falls apart. If I blend in with the band, it's "tubas, you're dragging the beat".

I, too, play with a similar band, one that is gifted in brass, but the percussion is sadly wanting. Almost every rehearsal is a tug-o-war between me (the sole tuba) and the drums. I am vainly trying to follow the conductor and push the beat, and they are set in their slower tempo. If I really stick with the conductor, the whole thing falls apart with the rest of the band not knowing whether to follow me and the conductor or the drums---hence, gridlock! I am getting quite frustrated with the whole thing, and often just wind up settling back into the tempo the drums set and forgetting about the conductor's attempts to speed things up. This I know is musically wrong, but the band does hang together, at least. The bass drummer is trying hard but challenged somewhat, so I really do not want to go that route, but I think I have to have a chat with the conductor just for my own sanity.

[WoodSheddin]

It ain't just community bands where tempo and rhythm vary across the band.

When things get out of sync all across and I am not entirelly certain that my version is the overwhelming best version of the tempo then I fall to the conductor. Exactly with the conductor, even if he waivers a bit. This usually helps to draw everyone elses eyes up front.

When I am not certain of exactly which tempo is proper and the conductor seems to be following more than leading then I fall on the drums. This is failsafe mode. Things will function if the drums can keep a reasonable sense of time.

When the conductor is following instead of leading and the drums are not rock steady in tempo AND rhythm then I try to find what I am fairly certain is the proper tempo and rhythm and lay it down with steady determined conviction. The more rock solid you are the more likely people also looking for a tempo center will follow your lead. If you waiver then people will continue to wander.

I am in a different situation than you describe. Here most people really do listen even if sometimes the tempos start off too fast or too slow or start to decay or accellerate. When things start to go out of whack I like to just be stubborn about tempo until either the conductor/drum major steps in to correct or the drums settle into a better groove. If the conductor does start to take charge and it becomes more obvious that he is leading instead of following then that is your cue to lock into him. The last person in the band you want to lock tempo horns with is a conductor who is leading, regardless of your personal opinion on the matter at that moment.

Of course all the above is stated with the disclaimer that even though I may be 100% certain that my version of the groove is most correct , my version of the groove has a 100% chance of still being incorrect. So be humble even when you think you are right.

[Art Hovey]

I usually try to stay with the conductor and let the rest of the band try to catch up. Sometimes the drummers are so far behind that their offbeats in 2/4 time sound like 6/8. It sometimes gets pretty bad in rehearsals but I found that in performances the conductor tend to ease off a bit and stay with the band.

[Rick Denney]

The post on keeping an even rythm is great, but there is a side subject where I also have a problem and would like to hear how others cope with it.

There are two cases here.

1. A conductor who knows what he wants and demonstrates it with his stick. In these cases, I fall in with those who said to stick with the conductor, as scrupulously as it is possible for me to do. Good conductors will know who is with them and who isn't, and will work with those saxophones suffering from baritone syndrome (i.e., becoming like a tipsy baritone singer at a party when asked to sing a song). My current conductor is a tuba player, so he's especially tuned into what we are doing. To prepare to follow his tempo even when nobody else is doing so, I practice what Jacobs called the velocity stuff with a metronome that has a light and a click, with the click switched off. That forces me to watch for a tempo that challenges me.

2. Not all conductors are able or willing to press their intended tempo in the presence of a band that won't keep up. This was the case in one band in which I played in another city. The tuba section (led by TubaRay) agreed that we would determine an acceptable tempo and stick to it. The band (and the conductor) would follow us. The only reason we got away with it is because we all did it precisely together, and with a good musical sense and commitment. In that group, the percussionists were hopeless when it came to keeping a beat. If I was by myself in a group like that, I don't know what I would do, though if the conductor could not keep a beat and scolded me for trying, I'd probably ease on out of that group and go somewhere less stressful.

Rick "thinking the conductor should be the one central source for tempo" Denney