pyramid of sound

[ken k]

I know the sound ideal of the pyramid of sound with the low instruments being louder than the higher instruments to balance out and support the harmony of the band. But at the symphony concert tonight I was thinking orchestras don't seem to subscribe to that ideal as much, since they have two to three times the violins compared to celli and bassi, plus all the upper WWs. Violin sound tends to dominate the overall tone of the orchestra (not in a bad way mind you) And the celli and bassi usually have a very clear tone. Orchestra, (esp. string orch) music also tends to be more contrapuntal than most band music. (broad generalization I realize, but I am thinking along the lines of a Mozart, Haydn or as tonight CPE Bach.) BTW, I was in the audience at the Reading Symphony concert tonight. They played the annual budget saving classical concert, with the typical small classical style orchestra, with about 50 members. (CPE bach Symphony, Mozart Piano cto, Mendelssohn Scottish Symphony)

One problem with multiple tubas in bands I always feel the sound tends to get mushy, unless you have 4 guys or so that really play together in tune as a group and no one tries to be the star. Sometimes i think less is more.

Brass bands and drums corps sound is especially built on the pyramid tonal ethos. Whereas a smaller collegiate style wind ensemble would only have one tuba and clarity and accuracy are the ideal. (not they shouldn't be the ideal normally in any group, again I am just makeing some very generalized observations)

Just some random thoughts, talk amoungst yourselves.... k

[Wyvern]

I tend to think two tubas in a band - one on upper and one lower in divisi passages is quite enough for all but the very largest band. There are only 2 of us in my concert band of 50 and we have no trouble providing a firm foundation. Even one tuba works fine, but the continued nature of band music playing (few rests) makes it hard work for the player.

Brass bands with 4 tubas for band of only 25 sound too bottom heavy to my ears (on occasions that I have played with brass band with only one Eb and one BBb bass, I have thought that preferable). For brass ensembles, I tend to prefer the sound of a 10 piece band with just one tuba which rather mirrors the set up in the orchestra.

I think less can be more satisfying (for player/s and listeners) in this case!

[ztuba]

3 players is the best. Wehad that when I was in school and we had one do top one bottom and another go pedal range and we played everything in 3 octaves unless it was fast or something staggered. It is like grainger on crack. But all three can not suck in the least for it to work.

[Dan Schultz]

...... One problem with multiple tubas in bands I always feel the sound tends to get mushy, unless you have 4 guys or so that really play together in tune as a group and no one tries to be the star. Sometimes i think less is more. .....

How true. Sadly, I've only played in one band (a very demanding brass band) where the tubas even came close to being together and in-tune.

[Tuba Guy]

The intonation among many tubas is something that my current director of bands (also an amazing euph player) and I have talked about. He doesn't like having bands with 2 tubas because they are always fighting on pitch (trying to tune to the other one)...we have gotten around this in hs (a group that he conducts actually) by having a definitive lead and a definite second player...the lead would always be right (sic), and the 2nd player would do whatever it took to get in tune with the lead (my first year, I was 2nd...on occasion, I made up some very creative fingerings to get in tune). With more than 3 tubas, the theory is that the intonation will balance itself out. Theoretically. Then you just have to worry about everyone getting their parts down, being in time, dynamics, articulation, accents, etc (still a lot to worry about)

[tubatom91]

I play in an orchestra with two tubas, we usually help each other out when we forget how many measures we are in to a long rest. We cover for each other and generally sound fantastic. Last "cycle" we played Revueltas' Sensamaya that starts with a tuba solo. We never really hashed out how was going to play it so we both played it everytime till the concert, and at the concert we went for broke and doubled the part. The orchestra conductor never noticed and everybody that heard could never tell. I like playing alone in an orchestra but I value having sombody next to me that has a similar part. In band I think two tubas can work very well. In my School band me and another tuba player hold things together with good results and tend to drag the dead weight of another tuba player with us (He is the type that text messages people in rehersals, talks, never writes anything down, etc.). I love hearing divisi parts played with two tubas rather than three or four. In my school at least, it seems that the high part is associated with being the more important part, or that playing the high part makes you more important (Which I think we can all agree is not the case). I think that as long as the results are satisfactory any number of tuba's will suffice. But you do have to play accordingly and try to compensate for the lack of/ abundance of tuba sound.

[Rick Denney]

I've never bought into the "pyramid of sound" concept.

I wish I had written Joe's post. I could have--it matches my experience perfectly, right down to relishing those opportunities to play alone in bands.

One well-known local pro has agreed to help us out when needed, but only if there are no more than two tuba players, including him. He didn't have to explain the reasoning behind that request.

I often doubt my own ability to play well in tune, when when I'm sharing the section with a player who can play in tune, we always seem to play in tune together. I've only played in one section that was larger than two where it worked that way, and that was a long time ago. I think it's quite rare for amateurs, and not guaranteed even among pros.

To define music a little differently from Joe, it seems to me music has two aspects: Pitch and timbre. Orchestras seem to have their main pitch instruments (the strings) and then a range of color instruments, designed to create timbre with particular emotional impact. In wind band, the colors are not so, well, colorful, being dominated by mid-range instruments. Saxophones and euphoniums are the only band instruments not often found in orchestras, and they make a poor substitute for strings (at least non-celli strings). So the instruments that normally provide color in orchestrations are given the duty of laying out the core pitch, which undermines the appeal of the special color they can provide. Few arrangers have overcome that limitation--Hindsley is an example of one who succeeded more often than not.

To carry the example forward, when I listen to a Hindsley arrangement being well performed, I hear what Vaughan Williams described as "points of color"--which was his description of what Ravel taught him--but I don't hear anything that could be termed a "pyramid of sound."

Rick "who thinks it's the conductor's responsibility to establish balance, and then the musicians' responsibility to deliver it reliably" Denney