Old design

[imperialbari]

One of the European web auctions had this instrument said to be in C. Which would be tenor C as the instrument is only 60cm high with a bell diameter of 19cm. Combines 3 oddities:

Tornister layout
flareless bell
Wiener Pumpen







K

[Mister JP]

Forgive my ignorance, but... What's happening with that valve action? How does it work?

[tubaguy9]

Forgive my ignorance, but... What's happening with that valve action? How does it work?

Thank you for asking that question for me...
A few other questions:
Why did we move away from that type of valve and action? Is it price? And what about the layout? Did we end up finding out that we had too much tubing to wrap that way, or is it a comfort thing? And why did we end up with having a bell flare? Do the sound vibrations work better with the flare?

[Kevin Hendrick]

Forgive my ignorance, but... What's happening with that valve action? How does it work?

Thank you for asking that question for me...
A few other questions:
Why did we move away from that type of valve and action? Is it price? And what about the layout? Did we end up finding out that we had too much tubing to wrap that way, or is it a comfort thing? And why did we end up with having a bell flare? Do the sound vibrations work better with the flare?

You may find this interesting (as regards the valves):

http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/earlval.htm

[iiipopes]

Forgive my ignorance, but... What's happening with that valve action? How does it work?

Thank you for asking that question for me...
A few other questions:
Why did we move away from that type of valve and action? Is it price? And what about the layout? Did we end up finding out that we had too much tubing to wrap that way, or is it a comfort thing? And why did we end up with having a bell flare? Do the sound vibrations work better with the flare?

Valve action: berliner pumpen are basically double valves; so yes, cost; and rotors and perinet valves are arguably easier to manufacture and more efficient: "Périnet valves were soon applied to the cornet, and by the late nineteenth century, they became the valve choice for American, French, and British manufacturers. The Périnet valve, developed in 1839 by Etienne François Périnet, was wider than the Stölzel valve, but not as wide as the Berliner-pumpen. Windways had gentler curves than either Stölzel or Berliner-pumpen valves, minimizing resistance."

http://www.angelfire.com/music2/thecorn ... ory_2.html" target="_blank" target="_blank ;

Layout: think about how that bell takes the center of gravity wayyyy off center, unless it was really small, like the Cerveny:

http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/tuba ... rtuba.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Bell flare: consistency of response from register to register, http://hendrix2.uoregon.edu/~dlivelyb/phys152/L12.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

The shown instrument does not have Berliner Pumpen, a valve system I wrote about here:

viewtopic.php?p=255358#p255358

I happen to have a single horn with Wiener Pumpen plus crooks and slides for Bb, A, F#, and F. If nothing else it is different from instruments with rotors and Perinet style pistons.

The airpath isn’t too bad, and research converting frequencies and their amplitudes into 3-D graphic maps show that the legato connection between notes are smoother on Wiener Hörner than on conventional horns.

Why are Wiener Pumpen no longer in widespread use? Why are they no longer seen on trumpets, valve trombones, baritones, or tubas?

Each valve slide connects to two pistons, which have to move exactly in sync. That is a problem of its own, today only addressed by a few makers of very costly double or triple descant horns.

But my take is pragmatic at a lower tech level. The pairs of pistons represent quite a bit of inertia to be handled by long and thin brass push-rods (on the horn), by the elaborately shaped and heavier push rods on this present C baritone. These push rods will either flex or be heavy. The action isn’t as precise as with rotors let alone pistons.

Disassembling these Wiener Pumpen for maintenance also is risky.

K