miraphone 191

[dentaltuba]

any opinions on miraphone 191 as first horn for adult who wants to get back into tuba world

[scottw]

Welcome back!
I would think the 191 would work great for most bands[?] you would want to perform in. It is a large BBb , .835 bore with an 18.5" bell. It is considerably bigger than it's better-known 186 cousin. We seldom see them for sale used. I can't speak as to their intonation/tone issues as I haven't played one, but Miraphone is a very well-respected maker. Someone will jump in soon with a report! Good luck getting back.

[J. Laux]

I play a 191 atm and love it. The instrument has a great depth to its notes and has a very free low register. My instructor has asked to trade it for his 186 a few times, but since has decided to buy one of his own. Granted I have only played 2 different rental Conns from high school and college, his 186, and the schools Jupiter Bb's, but next to a classmates Besson it has a better tuba-representative sound.

[jmerring]

The mention of the large bore reminds me that I had great difficulty in pouring enough air into it, to even get the BBb in tune. I love the sound, with the short bell stack. It is a gigantic sound compared to the 186. The nifty double tuning slide for the fourth valve just made my day.

[WakinAZ]

I would work your way up to that. Even some seasoned adult amateurs are not going to have the wind to do that horn justice. I came back to playing about 5 years ago after a 17 year hiatus. It took me a few years to get to the point where I could move air efficiently enough for a larger bore/larger size horn. Start with a standard horn (186 or King 2341) and go from there. When you get to the point of consistently wanting more power than that first horn can provide, start shopping. I just wouldn't want you to get frustrated with a horn you could not fill up. It's not a macho thing, btw - it's a time/learning curve thing.

Eric

[termite]

Hi Dentaltuba (not his real name?)

I went back to playing the tuba two and a half years ago after a twenty year break.
I played a borrowed beat up old Yamaha 321 BBb for a while and then bought a second hand Miraphone 1291 five valve. (Piston version of the 191).

I can't comment on the 191 as I've never played one. The general TNFJ consensus seems to be that the two are very similar with the 191 having more bite down low but with a different sound between the high and low registers whereas the 1291 is a bit more civilised and more homogenised top to bottom. Many feel that the 1291 is possibly a slightly better instrument but it comes down to whether you prefer pistons or rotors. (This is a distillation of many posts on the subject). For what it's worth I use the fifth valve a lot and wouldn't like to be without it now.

I don't have a very big lung capacity and breath more often than anyone I sit next to but I feel the 1291 gives me more sound for the same air than either my old Boosey&Hawkes Imperial three valve BBb that I use for marching or the aforementioned Yamaha 321.

The more you open up your mouth and pour air through the Miraphone the more sound it makes. The others stop after a certain point. Some consider it a semi specialised instrument for the serious BBb player but I like it and I'm a middle level amateur player.

It is definitely an instrument which needs a high volume of low speed air. Your whole throat, mouth and jaw need to be really open to play a 1291. (Presumably the 191 is the same).

I play in Brass and Concert bands and do a lot of solo playing as well. (Eisteddfods and competitions - i.e. I pay to play not the other way around). The 1291 seems to work pretty well in all of these situations. The colour in the middle and high registers is amazing. I never feel the need for an EEb or F tuba for the solo stuff.

Sometimes I want a bigger sound but I think the problem there is me rather than the instrument. To get a bigger sound would take something really huge like the 5/4 Rudolf Meinl (more like a 6/4 - makes the 1291 look like a euphonium - if anyone would like to lend me one of these for an extended 1291 - Rudy comparison I would be most grateful). I haven't heard my tuba played by a really serious BBb player so I don't know what it's real potential is sound wise.

I don't know whether this applies to the 191 but with the 1291 you use the third valve alone rather than first and second. If you get one don't muck around pulling the first valve slide every time you play a D or a G - just accept that you have use the third valve. (N.B. low G three spaces down is still played first and second).

If anyone wants my list of fingerings and slide pulls that I use on my 1291BBb just PM me.

The usual advice on these forums is to go to somewhere like Dillons and play everything in the place and see which tuba picks you.

If you haven't played for a while it might be a good idea to borrow whatever tubas you can find and take a few months to get back into the groove so that you will be better able to tell what tuba you like when you go to buy one.

I don't know how things work in the US but here in Australia most community brass bands have a full set of instruments and many tuba players never own their own instrument.

I hope this is of some help.

Regards

Gerard

[oedipoes]

I don't know how things work in the US but here in Australia most community brass bands have a full set of instruments and many tuba players never own their own instrument.

In Belgium, the band will have or will buy a horn for you, but if you would like a good one, you will have to buy it yourself...
If you are lucky, they will help and finance your horn, so that you don't have to deal with the whole cost at once. That's better than buying 'cheap' horns, that nobody likes to play.

[Lew]

I like the 191, but personally prefer the 1291. I just like the feel of pistons better than rotaries though and that is probably the source of my preference. That said, I agree with those who have said that the 191 is probably too much horn for someone just getting back into playing after a long hiatus. I hadn't played tuba in 18 years when I picked it up again, and started with the old, 2 piece King 2341. It was the perfect horn for me to start up on again. I found that I didn't have the stamina to handle a larger bore horn at the time. After a few years back I decided that the low range was just not there for me on the old King and started trying out other horns. I ended up with a newer, 1 piece 2341 because I found it more responsive. I have never had any problem using it for any of the music that I have encountered in the 4 different community bands in which I have played it. I have found horns that I have liked better than the King in response and/or articulation, including the 1291, but none that made me feel like I had to replace the King.

If you have a line on a 191 for a reasonable price it's a good horn and you will probably grow into it, but my preference would be to start on something with a little smaller bore.

[Donn]

I used to have a 190, also a largish Miraphone. I don't remember that I did very well with it, and I could see in retrospect that as a beginner I could have done better with something else. But I know a lot of 190 players had the same idea, beginners or not, so maybe you can't prove anything by me.

Just to probe the volume of air issue, though - is this really just about volume of air? So even the most accomplished player is going to have to come up for air sooner on his 191, than if he were playing the same long note on a 186? Or is it really about control?

[termite]

I suspect this is more about control.

There are really good players who will make a big heavy sound on small instruments - they usually have a big lung capacity and can move a large amount of air very efficiently.

I can't get much sound out of a smaller instrument and use the 1291 to amplify my feeble efforts. My first instrument when I was younger was the clarinet and in retrospect I tried to blow the tuba the same as the clarinet with predictable results.

Since taking up tuba again I've done a lot of reaading on how to blow the thing properly. When I first started trying to "open up" I felt like I was blowing out into wide open space. I had been used to the combined resistance of a stuffy instrument (old British tubas) and a closed jaw and throat. I've spent a LOT of time playing long notes and Hymn tunes both with a drone and unaccompanied trying to master this. I've come a long way but I feel like I've got several years still in front of me. (I'm a very patient man - I've also got the nagging thought that if I went to a good teacher they might shake their head in despair and say that I'm doing it all wrong).

Since doing all this work on the 1291 I've picked up a couple of smaller instruments (B&H Imperial BBb - probably 4/4 size and a Yamaha 321 EEb - not a big instrument at all) and blown the hell out of them trying to get the same sound. I didn't get any further in one breath on the smaller instruments. I think a certain amount of sound takes a certain amount of air regardless of what you're using to amplify it.

Anyway I'm at the limit of my expertise here.

Regards

Gerard

[SinNawlins]

I have not played a 191, but saw one close up the first time last week at band practice. One of the gys from the Baton Rouge Concert Band visited to practice with us just for fun (I missed his name). The size of 191 shocked me. You could have told me it was a 5/4 and I wouldn't have questioned it. The overall size and bore of the mouthpipe, tubing and valves are impressive.

Bear in mind tho, I am a 64 year old trombone guy just starting on the tuba and the size and weight are way bigger than what I am used to. So I have gravitated toward a YBB-103 as my first tuba. Later i do want to play something bigger but the YBB-103 seems plenty big for now.

Size and bore can be a big deal for an older player. Last year, for my trombone, i switched from a .500/.525 dual bore to a .547 bore trombone and the difference in wind required surprised me. It has not been a problem but i do need breaths more often, and have to focus on deeper breathing to keep up the bigger voice of the .547. To help, I bought one of those lung exercisers, the "Ultrabreathe". It is used by people with lung diseases like emphysema and COPD, as well as by healthy athletes and musicians who want to improve lung capacity. It is like weight lifting for the diaphragm and seems to be helping. Good for singers too.

There are so many interesting tubas out there it would be fun to have a collection. Good luck!

[TubaingAgain]

As a 191 5 valve owner for over 2 years, all I can say is every time I play it I enjoy it even more. Have had several PRO's try it all with great responces. 1 even went as far as to it was by far the best feeling and sounding tuba he has ever played. Then he asked how much I wanted for it. Sorry NOT for sale. Certainly cant go wrong with a 191

[bearphonium]

As a returning to music after a 20 year hiatus switching to tuba after having played trombone/french horn previously extremely amateur hobbiest middle aged woman who really has her eye on a 191, I think I might have something to contribute!

I have the opportunity to play on a MS Yamaha YBB105 (cousin to the YBB103) that I borrow and a less than 4/4-more than 3/4 York Master BBb that I bought here on TubeNet (both essentially small horns). I am glad that I started with smaller horns, and have discovered that I really need more horn. The 105 really "barks" giving my tone more of what I think of as a trumpet quality, and it feels like sometimes there is nowhere for my air to go in the York.

It might be best to start out on a more standard horn (186 comes to mind) but if you don't want to be buying another horn in a couple years, you might just want to go with a 191. My two cents, YMMV.

[termite]

Here's another thought.

I got my 1291 about eighteen months after returning to the tuba after my own twenty year hiatus (twenty years of my life wasted!!!!) When I first got it I was nowhere near filling the thing properly but then I wasn't blowing the YBB321 I had before it properly either. It WASN'T a case of me filling the smaller instrument magnificently and then falling down with the larger 1291.

It was more a case of my throat and jaw were too closed and I was trying to push the air through too fast with predictable results - a thin closed sound lacking in colour.
When I first picked up the 1291, (blowing badly) I immediately sounded better than I did on the YBB321 (based on feedback from other band members).

After I'd had the Miraphone for a while I started to get the idea of opening up and using slower air. (Tubenet contributed a lot here). The Miraphone responded a lot better to this than any other tuba I've played and consequently I responded better as well and I think I've made much better progress than if I was still trying to play a smaller, stuffier instrument.

As an aside a friend of mine's daughter who is studying flute at college has been told by her teacher that she needs to buy a twenty thousand dollar flute. (Aussie banana republic dollars - not US dollars). He said that her current instrument just doesn't respond well enough to what she's trying to do and that she won't get any further on it. He also said that once she's progressed on a better flute that she would then be able to play better on lesser instruments.

I have to say that my own experience playing and teaching woodwind instruments and learning to use woodworking hand tools backs this up.
I definitely don't believe in the idea of "learn on rubbish equipment and then you'll be able to do anything on good stuff."
My observation made over many years across several different fields is that the opposite is true. You cannot learn to play if you pick up an instrument and pretty much do it right but the instrument doesn't respond the way it should and your brain then starts making adjustments looking for the desired result. i.e. if you start out right and then change - what's happened?

The point I'm making in a roundabout fashion is that someone picking up the tuba after twenty years WON'T fill a 191 or 1291 like a pro straight away but if they're aiming for a proper tuba technique (open oral cavity, slow air) then the way the 191 responds will make them improve much faster than a lesser instrument would. The instrument and player will feed off each other.
I currently find supporting a large ensemble much less work on my 1291 than trying to do the same thing on a smaller instrument. Remember: don't try to blow hard with a big tuba - open up you're mouth, feed the air in slowly and let the instrument do the work. (I keep on saying this because it's what I need to do - repeating it endlessly helps me get the right image in my head).

For the record I'm 5' 7", middle aged and overweight with a four and a half litre lung capacity and not naturally good at blowing wind instruments. I'm probably the sort who would often be guided towards a smaller, less demanding instrument but I'm finding it's more about technique than raw vital capacity.

Another 1291 versus 191 thing - I'm not sure how the slides are arranged on the 191 but on the 1291 they're all under the left hand which makes slide pulling a breeze.

Regards

Gerard

(I don't think I know anything more to say about this).