Pines of Rome: Tuba or Bass Trombone?

[Jonathan Baker]

Hello
There is discussion at my orchestra as to whether Respighi's Pines of Rome is originally for bass trombone or tuba (it is scheduled in November)? Our music librarian writes:
"In the Ricordi score it clearly states “4 Tromboni”, with no Tuba listed in the instrumentation. Daniels’ “Orchestral Music: A Handbook”, which is the standard reference work for orchestras throughout the world, also states that the work calls for 4 trombones and no tuba. I would also draw your attention to the following webpage giving details of the Eulenburg miniature score of “Pines of Rome” - http://www.schott-music.com/shop/1/1000 ... 32438.html"

This will be about the fourth or fifth time I've played it here and this is the first time anyone has mentioned four trombones. I am also unaware of it being performed or recorded with anything but tuba.

Anyone know any better?

Best wishes
Jonathan Baker
Principal Tuba
Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra
New Zealand

[djwesp]

The piece premiered on December 14, 1924 with 3 trombones and 1 tuba. I have played the piece 2 times. Having one part, myself, that clearly says TUBA at the top. The copy I played with the Hastings Symphony Orchestra (which was extremely, extremely old) in 2006 also said TUBA at the top.

These three things indicate to me it is to be played on tuba.



****Additional edit... It has been brought to my attention that there may be 2 versions of the orchestral pines of rome. This was done to facilitate the "roman trilogy", and some parts may have been altered so the entire orchestra stays static when playing the pieces in trilogy format. I do not know, fully, the accuracy of that information.

[Ace]

My orchestra played this work a few years ago. We used three trombones and tuba. My Ricordi pocket score specifies four trombones and no tuba. The fourth trombone part is perfect for tuba.

[Tom]

Tuba content:
The score to Pines of Rome shows 4th trombone, but the part is labeled "Tuba Bassa," and is most often done on tuba. That's all there is to it.

Regarding the work in general:
For those that care, the actual instrumentation for the Pines of Rome is:
3[1.2.3/pic].3[1.2.Eh].3[1.2.bcl].3[1.2.cbn]/4.3.4.0. 6 buccine [2 sop, 2ten, 2bass]. tmp+5. harp. celeste, piano, organ, and strings.

There is also a nightingale part (yes, nightingale as in the bird). A recording of the nightingale is shipped with the parts when the material is rented. A buccine (or buccina), by the way, is a sort-of Roman Army natural trumpet. Since most do not actually use a buccina,there are cues in the brass parts for the buccine parts and the publisher indicates that playing those cues is acceptable with the addition of a 5th and 6th horn and a 4th trumpet. The first 4 buccine parts are often done with flugelhorns, while buccine parts 5 and 6 work for tenor tuba or euphonium or low horn.

There are a number of ways to do a performance of Pines of Rome (as noted here: http://www.dmcclure.org/pini-rom.htm). For large scale works like these, personnel used is often dictated by the amount of money folks like me (orchestra administrators) have to play with and by how many folks are able to assume more than one role during the course of particular work (and obviously over the course of an entire concert).

Also, the story of the alternate version of Pines of Rome is news to me. Please provide more information on this if you can, as I am genuinely interested in learning about this, if in fact such a thing exists. I am only aware of the Ricordi version (available in the US through Boosey & Hawkes).

[imperialbari]

http://www.dmcclure.org/pini-rom.htm" target="_blank

That author has done a great effort, but he obviously is wrong in one matter relevant for low brass players. He interprets Flicorni Tenore as soprano flugelhorns. These really are the equivalents of the German/Czech oval Tenorhorn or the British baritone. I have seen Italian rotor instruments being straight and I have seen their mounted police use small piston baritones.

For the sake of fairness I should contact the said author, but I cannot fond any contact information on his site.

Klaus

[Tom]

http://www.dmcclure.org/pini-rom.htm" target="_blank

That author has done a great effort, but he obviously is wrong in one matter relevant for low brass players. He interprets Flicorni Tenore as soprano flugelhorns. These really are the equivalents of the German/Czech oval Tenorhorn or the British baritone. I have seen Italian rotor instruments being straight and I have seen their mounted police use small piston baritones.

For the sake of fairness I should contact the said author, but I cannot fond any contact information on his site.

Klaus

It is listed at the very top of the page:

Douglas McClure
(principal trumpet, Royal Symphonic Orchestra of Seville, Spain)
webmaster@dmcclure.org" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

Thanks for the address!

I just sent this mail:

Hello Mr. McClure

On the basis of a current thread on the TubeNet I read your page

http://www.dmcclure.org/pini-rom.htm

I agree with you in most, but as an instrument collector with some education in musicology I find you wrong in one matter: your interpretation of the flicorno tenore term.

The flicorno family comes in piston and rotor variants. It is very much like the French Saxhorn family, but its terminology is closer to the Czech/German family of conical brasses: Flügelhorn (soprano in Bb, but formerly also seen in soprano Eb & C plus alto F & Eb and bass in C & Bb) and then the ovals: Althorn in Eb, Tenorhorn in Bb, and Bariton in Bb with the really fat one being the Kaiserbariton.

The flicorno tenore is the Italian straight variant of the German Tenorhorn. In the piston variant it is very close to the Bristish baritone.

Aside from its old Roman usage Buccina also was used around 1800 as term for the military trombones with circular bell sections ending in dragonheads out of hammered brass or copper. Respighi hardly should be understood in the light of that intermezzo.

Your

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre of Denmark

[UDELBR]

Italian repertoire from 85 years ago, ambiguously marked: I say cimbasso. I've performed it on my Eb cimbasso, and it works great.