Why am I doing this?

[Dan Schultz]

We are bad, perhaps, but we are not the worst.

I think we'd be just as bad if tubas were as cheap as trumpets...

Of course, for a trumpeter, not all of them are going to be as comfortable reading differing fingerings for differently-keyed parts. Plus, the usual trumpet-n-picc "quiver" will cover 99% of typical amateur/semi-pro situations, and it's not that difficult to justify a set of horns for less cash than a single tuba.

I'm glad this was said. I was criticized by a trumpet player a couple of weeks ago because I missed a few fingerings on a difficult passage. I explained to him that I play Eb, BBb, and CC tubas and usually rotate them at our weekly community band rehearsals so I can keep my chops in shape. He didn't have a clue that the fingerings changed for the different keys. Frankly, I think student trumpets should cost $20,000! Maybe then there wouldn't be so darned many of these snotty morons!

[Rick Denney]

I played a quite kick-*** 5-valve Willson 5/4 BBb (3050?) at bloke's shop while visiting the folks over Thanksgiving. Willson's web site only shows a 5 valved 3050 fwiw.

...it was quite reasonably priced, too!

It depends on what you call "reasonable". Last I saw, the 3100 (which is the BBb equivalent of the 3050) was selling in the $9000 range. It's a big instrument--I've played a couple of them at the Army conferences. They are like what I hear about 3050's: big, heavy, and with very little feedback to the player. It takes a lot of confidence to play one.

Rick "who also could not figure out what to do with his left hand on that instrument" Denney

[tubajoe]

He said "so why do you play a CC tuba?". So why do I do it?
BR

For me, CC is probably most versatile in all keys -- practically all rock/folk etc is usually in sharp keys, and jazz, orchestral, chamber etc can be in any key. It's only in the "band" world do things lean in the direction of flat keys. (the more horns you play with, the more chance it will be in flat keys... the more stringed instruments, the more the sharp keys)

Sure you can play in any key on any horn, but sharp keys on Bb are not as efficient. If concert/brass band playing is what you plan to do, Bb is good and is perhaps most efficient... but its efficiency stops there -- the rest of the world plays in all keys.

Murph: Hey! Why'd they turn out the lights?!
Willie: Maybe they blew a fuse.
Lou: I don't think so man. Those lights are off on purpose.
Elwood: Okay. We gotta figure out something these people like and fast.
Murph: Hey I got it. Remember the theme from Rawhide?
Elwood: The old favorite. Rowdy Yates.
Murph: What key?
Donald: A. Good country key.
Elwood: Rawhide in A!

[Rick Denney]

Put it in your pocket...It ain't no Holton...The Willson actually has a scale

You're right. It ain't no Holton. It does not have the resonance or color of a Holton. And if you'd ever come to the Army conference instead of always finding excuses not to, you could toot a bit on my Holton and tell me if you think it doesn't have a scale.

My beef with the left hand was that I could not reach any of the slides reasonably with the left hand, and there was no place to grab that didn't twist my fingers in a knot. That thing is too heavy to hold one-handed, even perched on a K&M stand.

Rick "who'd be in real trouble if his Holton didn't have a decent scale" Denney

[Lew]

He said "so why do you play a CC tuba?". So why do I do it?
BR

For me, CC is probably most versatile in all keys -- practically all rock/folk etc is usually in sharp keys, and jazz, orchestral, chamber etc can be in any key. It's only in the "band" world do things lean in the direction of flat keys. (the more horns you play with, the more chance it will be in flat keys... the more stringed instruments, the more the sharp keys)

Sure you can play in any key on any horn, but sharp keys on Bb are not as efficient. If concert/brass band playing is what you plan to do, Bb is good and is perhaps most efficient... but its efficiency stops there -- the rest of the world plays in all keys.
...

Sure, but he is a band director and therefore will be spending most of his time with students who will be playing BBb instruments, therefore, why not BBb.

The larger question is, why do the vast majority band students learn and play on BBb tubas? I think you answered this yourself. That being the case, why not play on a BBb?

[TubaTodd82]

Sure BBb instruments may be less expensive, but in my experience I have never played any BBb instrument that played anything close to the way my PT-6 plays. I have played a great many tubas and my opinion still stands. On every BBb horn I played there was a huge difference in sound and in quality. Also, the key of the horn doesn't really make any difference when dealing with sharps and flats if anything you should play scales more and put less blame on the tuba. Sure we place a lot weight on equipment, and I think that all instrumentalist do for the simple fact that if your instrument or mouthpiece is prohibiting you from achieving your goal it may be time to upgrade to something better. Once you find the right combination then sure stay with what you have, even then what does it hurt to try new things? One never knows when a change of equipment might help you accomplish something or make something easier. I'll now step off of my soap box.

[Kevin Miller]

I use a right facing Besson 981 Eb to teach my students who predominantly play left facing Mirafones, along with traditional euphoniums. It makes it easier to read off the same stand. Also, they can't cheat and look to my fingerings for help. It's fun busting them when it's obvious they are doing just that.

[Leland]

Sure, but he is a band director and therefore will be spending most of his time with students who will be playing BBb instruments, therefore, why not BBb.

Ya know, when I was learning valves in drum corps (I was a strictly a trombone player until then), I learned valve sequences partly by watching players next to me and at the far end of the hornline.

You can't assume that a kid is just listening to your words or reading the instructions on the page -- they're probably looking really closely at your fingers, too. Now, it's not impossible to teach a BBb-playing kid while you've got a CC, but using the same key of horn might make it that much easier for them.

[Rick Denney]

Sure BBb instruments may be less expensive, but in my experience I have never played any BBb instrument that played anything close to the way my PT-6 plays.

Well, of course not. But that doesn't mean a BBb instrument would not suit another player as well as your PT-6 suits you. Don't extrapolate. European pros routinely play BBb instruments when they want a contrabass, and they play instruments like the Meinl-Weston 195 and the Rudy Meinl Bayreuth--first class tubas by any standards and with no need to blush in the presence of any C.

And the new Miraphones are impressing more than just band amateurs. The 1291 can surely compete with instruments like the PT-6, assuming a good fit with the player.

It's hard to diagnose what inhibits us, because we are not good at establishing cause and effect. I still say that if the original poster felt like his CC was uniquely suited to him, he'd have never for a moment consider the issue that he is presenting.

Rick "who thinks the PT-6 is a fine tuba but who would not learn CC fingerings just to play one" Denney

[TubaTodd82]

I guess it comes down to what kind of sound you want. When trying horns, there were no BBb instruments that gave me the dark German sound like I wanted, and my PT-6 gave me. And I'm sure very few CC horns give those Brass Band players the bright sound that they are striving for. What I want to sound like might not be what the next guy wants. But I know for a fact that Gene Pokorny can sound any way he wants on any instrument that he plays on. So maybe I should be in practice room rather than posting on this site.

[Rick Denney]

I guess it comes down to what kind of sound you want. When trying horns, there were no BBb instruments that gave me the dark German sound like I wanted, and my PT-6 gave me. And I'm sure very few CC horns give those Brass Band players the bright sound that they are striving for.

This baffles me. Band players want a bright sound while orchestral players want a dark sound? That doesn't jibe with what I hear.

The orchestral players I respect the most talk about how they want color in their sound. That color comes from those upper harmonics, and those players and their Yorkish tubas are most renowned for it.

It's band players who talk about having a sound that is "rich in fundamental", and I find more band players satisfied with a woofy sound (which is what "rich in fundamental" sounds like) than orchestral players. The orchestral players want clarity. Even the power sound, which to me stems from Roger Bobo and also from the use of Alexander tubas, has an intensity that includes a wide range of harmonic content. It also has an intensity of projection, rather than an enveloping sound, but both need lots of color to carry well.

You like the sound of your PT-6, as well you should. It's a fine tuba by all accounts. But I'll bet your tests of BBb tubas did not include the sorts of instruments I've mentioned. I can't imagine not being able to produce a dark, Germanic sound (which to me is the power sound) from a BBb Alexander or a BBb Rudy Meinl (or a Meinl-Weston Fafner, for that matter). The recordings I hear of European orchestras sure demonstrates it.

Rick "who thinks band players are often trying to get a string-bass depth, while orchestral players are trying to contrast with the string-bass sound" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Rick "who thinks band players are often trying to talk to that cute 3rd clarinet player during the break, while orchestral players are trying to avoid doing anything that would prompt the maestro to say the word tuba" Denney

Believe me, band players are interested in the second item, too. But it's a forlorn hope--both our music director and associate conductor are tuba players and hear us first. We get even more verbal direction than the saxophones (though that may be because there is the hope of something to be gained by that direction in our case).

And the only female third clarinetist is our group isn't cute, but she is our next-door neighbor. Conversations stay, um, formal, covering subjects such as the weather and the likelihood of needing to put a load of gravel on our shared driveway.

Rick "confused by what tuba players say to each other" Denney

[Matt G]

Back to topic...

I used to play only CC and F.

I now own two BBb's (One for sale ). Reason being is that the BBb's work just fine in an orchestra and even better in the average community band. I could tote around a CC and be cool with my 5 valve-ness, but I just don't care anymore. Besides, one of the BBb's I have is "ginourmous" and still gets attention, and with only 3 valves. But it is a wicked good tuba and plays as cleanly and easily as any good or even great 6/4 (maybe it is the York body and bows). One day I'll probably upgrade it and get 4 valves to fit into the crowd of uber-valved players, but who knows.

The other tuba (the one for sale) is THE 3+1 compensating tuba. It is not bright at all and actually plays 'darker" than my 6/4 beast. In fact, when I have played in a local pays-to-cover-my-gas orchestra, I choose the big 'un because it has a better series of upper overtones, or however Rick would put it, and just plain sounds better. The bigness of the 6/4 (BBb or CC) allows for the player to switch off between the basses and the 'bones effectively. The Besson is just too damn dark and just tends to aid the basses only.

I'm willing to let anyone challenge my old frankentuba for playing ability. I'll take on that PT-6!

[Chuck(G)]

...that gave me the dark German sound like I wanted

http://www.mamarocks.com/littleredridinghood.mid

[Rick Denney]

(How's that left hand, btw?)

Are you talking about my inability to do reasonable things with the left-thumb-operated fifth valve on the B&S? Ever since determining that 124 is the most effective low Bb on this instrument, I find I don't need it often enough to worry about. I sometimes use 35 for C, and sometimes 4, with 5 tuned to work in that application. That gives me 234 for A, 345 for Ab (with a slide pull if the note is long enough), 1345 for G, and 12345 and deep prayer for Gb. But I don't play down in that range very often when I'm using F tuba, so the clumsiness of the left thumb operation isn't that much of an issue. The bigger issue is that it isn't the most comfortable place for my left hand, and more than once I've been caught with my left hand too far from the trigger to play a surprise low Ab.

I'm also considering soldering a coin to the part of the linkage in front of the branch, that would make it easier to operate the valve with my left forefinger pushing in towards the right.

But I think making the fifth valve operate on the right hand would mess me up when I try to go back and forth between the B&S and the little Yamaha. The different operation helps me keep the different fingerings sorted out.

Rick "with no left-hand technique" Denney