More Embarrassing Questions

[termite]

Along with the front-action compensating Besson tubas... there are a few of these oddball Marzans by Willson euphoniums floating around:

This is a good picture - you can see the "U" shaped compensating loops sticking out of the valve casing.

Gerard

[Tubadork]

So the compensating Euphs are compensating tone and not intonation right?
Because as we have all be lectured to on another thread that went nuts, any adjustment to the length of the instrument is done only to manipulate the tone and our lips make the pitch right?

Sorry, had to do it,
Bill

[termite]

So the compensating Euphs are compensating tone and not intonation right?

Good TNFJ joke.

No one's brought this up yet but a lot of people feel that the compensating loops make a tuba "stuffy" to blow on fingerings where they come into play.

Gerard

[iiipopes]

The one item that has been missed in all this that might help clarify: the term "3+1" means that the first three valves are worked by the right hand, and the 4th valve is worked by the left hand, regardless of whether or not the instrument is conventional or Blaikley compensating. This usually means that the instrument, whether euph, Eb or BBb tuba, has the first three valves upright in Besson fashion and the fourth valve on the side of the instrument, rather than all four valves in a row, whether upright like on Yamaha 3 series and some Jupiter instruments, or in front, as on many other tubas.

[Lee Stofer]

There, someone had to use it, probably my all-time pet peeve word - Stuffy!!! But, whether stuffy, fluffy, or whatever, there is a certain tendency, more on some instruments than others, to have a slight increase in perceived resistance and possible loss of clarity. And, although I wouldn't have believed it two years ago, simply venting the pistons cleans up that tendency. Apparently, small pockets of air pressure get trapped in the many tubes and then released in the process of playing, particulary in fast passages, and venting the pistons relieves the pressure. Matt Walters get the credit for having this good idea. I have tried this on a non-compensating King piston-valve tuba within the last year, and it made a difference, making for very clean and concise articulation. Now, this does not mean that you can quit practicing................

[sloan]

There, someone had to use it, probably my all-time pet peeve word - Stuffy!!! But, whether stuffy, fluffy, or whatever, there is a certain tendency, more on some instruments than others, to have a slight increase in perceived resistance and possible loss of clarity. And, although I wouldn't have believed it two years ago, simply venting the pistons cleans up that tendency. Apparently, small pockets of air pressure get trapped in the many tubes and then released in the process of playing, particulary in fast passages, and venting the pistons relieves the pressure. Matt Walters get the credit for having this good idea. I have tried this on a non-compensating King piston-valve tuba within the last year, and it made a difference, making for very clean and concise articulation. Now, this does not mean that you can quit practicing................

Oh dear...yet another reason to visit Memphis every 6 months. It certainly makes sense, and is easy enough to do (if you've already done 10 - I wouldn't recommend it as a first-time basement project).

[danzeman]

Now for the dumb questions.

Compensating instruments must not be that much better over all (the explanations of the difference makes compensating systems sound ideal) or all large brass horns would have compensating systems. Has any horn manufacturer made a combi (compensating and non compensating horn)? Maybe with a 5th valve or a tuba like the Bb/F double horn that have two sets of lead pipes (I am assuming that the lead pipes are of different lengths on compensating and non compensating horns) both could be included in one horn.

[termite]

My understanding is that the British held the patent for the compensating system for many years with an iron fist and it's only recently that manufacturers in other countries having been making compensating instruments. Pretty much all compensating instruments currently being made are clones of the Besson Sovereign range of instruments aimed at the brass band market which is probably the best volume market for upmarket horns.

I'll get in trouble for using the "S" (stuffy) word again but to me compensating BBb tubas feel like they have a rag stuck down them compared to open blowing non-compensating European instruments. This may account for the BBb at least not being seen in orchestras or being recommended by college professors.

For whatever reason compensating instruments are a British style brass band phenomenon except for the euphonium. The compensating EEb tuba is used in orchestras in Britain but I think this is more the result of a long entrenched tradition rather than a decision made after playing everything available.

For the most part brass band tuba players only know about four plus one compensating tubas and don't want to know about anything else. A lot of brass bandies think that playing four valves with one hand is quite impossible - for them the fourth valve MUST be operated by the other hand. I've seen brass band players trying to play Yamaha 321's with their left hand coming round to reach the fourth valve!!!!
When these guys see any other sort of tuba (eg. my miraphone1291) they might be curious, but to them it's not a "proper" tuba.

The other thing is that the compensating solution to the inherent tuning problems of multi valve combinations is good for unskilled amateur players - they don't have to think - the instrument does it for them. These guys wouldn't hear if a long valve combination is sharp and thus wouldn't be reaching for a slide to pull or other solution - they would just play blissfully sharp.

If your playing is at a higher level than this intonation wise then you quickly realise that although the compensating system addresses the basic tendencies of the instrument it is far from being in tune. (Even if your playing to an equally tempered scale). Thus you will find yourself reaching for slides to pull, except these instruments are NOT set up for slide pulling.

The tuning is not so bad on some of the older three valve instruments but every non professional level player that I've sat next to playing a Sovereign EEb has had dreadful intonation - with the BBb's on one note, sharp the next, flat the next. These instruments need to be adjusted on every note like any other and they're not set up for it except for lipping which can be hard because the Sovereign has very tight "slots" - the instrument tends to pitch the notes for you.

I have seen pictures of a couple of European three valve rotary tubas with the compensating system - I think these are made primarily for marching.

Regards

Gerard (In Melbourne, Australia who's life has been ruled by stuffy compensating British brass band instruments).

[Rick Denney]

Actually, the patent on the Blaikley compensation system used in British instruments expired a very long time ago, and other manufacturers have been making compensators of that type at least since the 70's.

But it is probably the existence of the patent that prevented the Blaikley compensation system from becoming more widely popular.

To fill in a few gaps: There are three-valve compensators and four-valve compensators. The former use the third valve to not only add the tubing required for a third valve, but to also route the plumbing back through the second set of valve ports to add in the compensation loops. The latter use the fourth valve. On both, the compensation tubing is often a bit larger to alleviate the resistance. Three-valve compensation systems make it possible to correct for combination errors a bit more correctly.

Second gap: "Compensation" is a general term. "Blaikley compensation" is a specific compensation design. Moving slides manually to adjust bugle length when valves are used in combination is also a compensation system. Adding valves that replace the more troublesome combinations, or that provide more accurate combinations, is yet another compensation approach (with Fred Young's double tuba the extreme example of same). The Blaikley system is automatic, but there have been other automatic systems, too, that used levers and machinery to move slides when certain valve combinations were selected. These didn't work very well (mechanically, that is) and nobody makes them that way any more.

On the joke concerning adjusting bugle length for tone rather than pitch: One can lip any three-valve non-compensating system into tune. But doing so will cause the sound to lose some of its resonance. All compensation systems (from slide-pulling to Blaikley) make it possible for the bugle to be at the proper resonant length so that the player doesn't have to force a non-resonant pitch. Some players can't do that, of course, so tubas with automatic compensation such as the Baikley system will be more forgiving. And pulling slides on top-action tubas is never easy, and it's at least reasonable to speculate that the Blaikley approach made the top-action configuration persist longer where it was in common use.

Finally, on the subject of stuffiness: To me, "stuffy" means that the instrument doesn't resonate easily and requires more effort on the part of the player to control pitch and tone. There is certainly more resistance with lots of valve tubing in use, as free blowing through the fourth valve versus the open bugle will demonstrate, but even long valve branches might resonate easily enough to prevent any feeling of stuffiness. Stuffiness is the feeling one gets when the instruments seems to back up the air rather than make good use of it. Euphoniums have a larger bore with respect to the bugle length than do tubas, so the effect of additional valve tubing is correspondingly smaller. I don't notice any particular stuffiness on my Besson compensating euphonium in comparison to, say, my Reynolds non-compensating euphonium. In fact, the Besson feels quite a bit more open, as would be expected from an instrument with a larger bore and taper. A Willson feels more open still, and it is compensated, too.

But I have played a very old Besson 3-valve compensator in BBb, and found it quite stuffy. It required a highly focused air stream to prevent the sound from spreading and losing clarity and core. The bore of that instrument was small--perhaps .670 which is in the same range as a modern Eb--and the ratio of bore to bugle length is only 58% of what it is on a Besson Sovereign euphonium. Even a .750-bore BBb tuba would still have less than two-thirds the ratio of bore to bugle as a typical modern euphonium. That makes the addition of lots of valve tubing likely to have a bigger effect.

Rick "thinking there are reasons why Blaikley automatic compensation is common on euphs and rare on contrabass tubas" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

four plus one compensating tubas

I have never understood why these instruments are so often called 4+1 by so many people, when they are literally 3+1.

[Kevin Hendrick]

four plus one compensating tubas

I have never understood why these instruments are so often called 4+1 by so many people, when they are literally 3+1.

Nor have I -- "4+1" refers to a 5-valve instrument (generally non-compensating) with 4 valves for the right hand and 1 for the left. You'll also see "5+1" and "4+2", referring (respectively) to 6-valve horns with 5-right-1-left and 4-right-2-left setups. I think Tony Clements has a 6-valve Alex F with a 3+3 setup, and there's a picture here somewhere of Gary Buttery playing a 7-valve F with a 4+3 setup.

[Kevin Hendrick]

A lot of brass bandies think that playing four valves with one hand is quite impossible - for them the fourth valve MUST be operated by the other hand. I've seen brass band players trying to play Yamaha 321's with their left hand coming round to reach the fourth valve!!!!

And then there's the other side of the coin: saw a picture (some time back) of Howard Johnson playing a Besson 3+1 compensating F, and he'd had a key and linkage added so he could operate the fourth (side-mount) valve with his right little finger ...

[Bob Kolada]

http://hojozone.com/

[termite]

Hi Rick

That's interesting about the bore to bugle length ratios. I was vaguely aware that the compensating euphonium is a more successful instrument than the BBb contrabass equivalent - this give a reason why.

I have an old British three valve compensating BBb - if I play it after my 1291 I make the same sound at first but feel like I'm forcing the issue. After a while I find myself reverting to the spread-fundamental-only-brass band sound that this tuba is designed to make. It doesn't like making an American straight through the horn sort of sound. If you listen to some recordings of British brass bands you'll hear the sound these tubas want to make. It's a sort of dull "hooooohoooooo" sound compared to orchestral playing.

Regards

Gerard