Another Orchestra in Trouble

[Ace]

I hate to read about financial troubles with any symphony orchestra, especially this one.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/media ... /19330720/" target="_blank

[tuneitup]

Comments of the readers are the most interesting part. They are very sad and scary for professional musicians.

[TexTuba]

They're really not that scary. The great majority of this country is quite ignorant. Here's a thought:

How many musicians are going out and supporting the arts? How many of us have season subscriptions or make REAL effort to attend every concert?

[ZNC Dandy]

Not sure if I want to laugh at or pistol-whip the people who posted some of those comments. The staggering ignorance of this country astounds me. These are the same people who think that Public Radio is mostly paid for by the Federal Government. Most of the degenerates who posted that stuff, are probably the people who picket loudest for their city to get a new sports arena. I love the poster who thinks the city owns the orchestra.

[bort]

About 5 years ago, I was on a community band trip in Austria. I remember sitting around a tiny lobby in a Gasthaus and one of my friends (a music major) started playing some Beethoven on the common-room piano (#1). A group of old Austrians sitting across the room instantly perked up and rattled off the name of the piece (#2), saw the semi-startled reaction on our faces (#3), and then smiled and said "Wir haben Kultur" (#4).

In just that one interaction, those 4 distinct things stuck out to me now, even 5 years later and gave me a whole lot more perspective about how Americans view music, how Europeans view music, and what we think of each other.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Yep, those people who don't like classical music enough to pay $40-$120 for a concert ticket are certainly ignorant degenerates...and probably sports fans, too! If they were just more civilized, like us...if they only realized that they SHOULD be attending those concerts of music they don't like to support the arts...but, darn it, those uneducated masses just don't value live classical music performance like we do.

Anyone starting to realize what the problem is?

[TUBAD83]

If you want to put more "butts in the seats" you have to give folks a reason to "buy into" your product. Case in point: my hometown orchestra, the Houston Symphony--to say that its uber conservative is putting it mildly. All their programming is safe, predictive, and pretty much aimed at the 55+ crowd, which is why their audiences look like an AARP meeting. That is NOT GOOD, and eventually they will have serious financial problems. Lets be realistic here: people are not going to shell out $100+ for something thats going to put them to sleep. US Orchestras need to do some serious community outreach, take a hard look at their ticket prices, and be more friendly to the "unwashed, uneducated masses"--if they want to survive.

[Alex C]

How many musicians are going out and supporting the arts? How many of us have season subscriptions or make REAL effort to attend every concert?

You can't support the arts anymore than when you are the arts. Two professionals I asked said it in two different ways: "I don't listen to music, I make music." And "I haven't been to an orchestra concert since I retired: wrong side of the stage."

I don't blame musicians or band directors when they don't go to concerts every week but I do think that musicians have to keep up with what's happening. It helps to hear something else good once or twice a year anyway.

The problem for the general public is that the orchestra is hardly relevant to most people's lives. Make it relavent and attendance will improve. How do you make it relavent is the question?

[TexTuba]

How many musicians are going out and supporting the arts? How many of us have season subscriptions or make REAL effort to attend every concert?

You can't support the arts anymore than when you are the arts. Two professionals I asked said it in two different ways: "I don't listen to music, I make music." And "I haven't been to an orchestra concert since I retired: wrong side of the stage."

I'm sorry, were those quotes supposed to help the cause? "I don't listen to music, I make music." Really? "..wrong side of the stage." Wow! I wonder when they go out, do they have to ask for double everything...one for them and one for their egos...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Two professionals I asked said it in two different ways: "I don't listen to music, I make music." And "I haven't been to an orchestra concert since I retired: wrong side of the stage."

Anyone who thinks that attitude isn't on display when such performers are playing music for others should probably reconsider. That sort of vibe from a performer is as transparent as glass. What wonderful colleagues those two must be (must have been).

I sincerely hope some of the professional players on the forum post in this thread to reassure me that the two musicians Alex talked to represent a minority view. Am I that naïve to believe that professional players "do it" because they love the art, and that such people would seek out and enjoy opportunities to experience it?

Or are the majority of professional orchestral musicians the elitist misfits most of the public believe them to be?

[tubajoe]

It’s a story that always repeats itself.

What was once mainstream eventually becomes a niche.

This can be said for pretty much any genre. Classical is dealing with it, Jazz dealt with it, and now even Rock is seriously dealing with it.

Great orchestras will always exist in some format - any true *art* always finds a way to endure, as it's really the only true chronological record of humanity.

This all being said, don’t lose heart, the tuba IS more popular than it has been in almost a century, and people absolutely love to (and will pay to) hear it.

[steve_decker]

Yep, those people who don't like classical music enough to pay $40-$120 for a concert ticket are certainly ignorant degenerates...and probably sports fans, too! If they were just more civilized, like us...if they only realized that they SHOULD be attending those concerts of music they don't like to support the arts...but, darn it, those uneducated masses just don't value live classical music performance like we do.

Anyone starting to realize what the problem is?

Very, very well stated.

Like it or not, we still have elements of a free market. Organizations that operate in a responsible manner and meet the demand of the buying public will, for the most part, fare relatively well. Demand for orchestral music is indeed down. Is that evidence the US populace is uncultured? No. Music, as a whole, is probably as popular a form of entertainment as it ever has been. There are countless performers that have no problem selling-out nearly any venue.

As much as I enjoy orchestral music and instrumental ensembles, I recognize that I'm part of a shrinking minority. As a musician (albeit amateur), I also am glad to see that the majority are not shunning music... just choosing a different genre.

[MartyNeilan]

People hear great orchestral music all the time...
.
.
.
.
On movie soundtracks.

Really, 100 years from now, what will orchestras perform from this generation? Probably Star Wars. And, I don't mean that in a bad way.

[The Big Ben]

Another symphony in my area is having problems: The Everett Symphony. They have cancelled their season and cut the office staff to one and cancelled the rehearsal hall. They dipped into their endowment so they have no debt but have been bleeding for a few years. They are a small symphony- the players are not full time.

Classical does not do really well in the marketplace and, where it does, it's "popular classical". We've had a classical station in Seattle since 1948- before FM radios were common! It was the personal project of a wealthy woman who also owned the AM radio station and the first TV station in the NW. Her name was Dorothy Stimson Bullitt. Great lady, died very wealthy. Her heirs created a foundation to run KING-FM (a commercial station) as a method of funding the arts in the Seattle area. But.... Listen and compare KING-FM with WFMT-FM and you see what I mean by 'popular classical'.

Maybe we all are fossils. I don't know. Government shouldn't necessarily prop up the arts but it would sure be nice of corporate America did a little more for the arts on all levels.

[pierso20]

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009 ... ctorsmay17" target="_blank" target="_blank

I think we all should get paid what we're due, however...when it's the difference between being employed and still living in comfort...
Orchestra's aren't just for beauty...it's a business. Think about it (these are RANDOM numbers to make a point... ); The orchestra earns (for example) $4 million in a year but spends $3.8 million in overhead (salaries, etc.). Green Day makes $4 million in a year, but only has $1 million in overhead. Who wins? Who makes the most money and can then contribute to advertising, promotions, etc>?

You need to stop the bleeding now so that you can operate in the first place. After stopping the bleeding, you then need to find new creative ways to advertise and redesign your concept of what a concert should be like. Now, I'm not a pioneer in this thinking..I LOVE classical music, but when does one hear advertisements or get lured?? I almost NEVER see them in general public. I remember being constantly advertised to during college...when I had NO money to spend on tickets. Maybe orchestra advertising dollars (if being spent really at all) should be targeted to those who have at least a little to spend?

We live in a media frenzied world. The media and advertisements make people want the most rediculous things! (at least from what I've seen). Maybe orchestras need to follow suit and find more modern and creative ways to get people to their concerts. Maybe their guest soloists should be a pop musician? Maybe they need more tv airing? maybe find a way to get a tv special on NON NPR?

There are many ways to try and bring "classical music" back into the scene. People often dislike what they don't understand or aren't familiar it, which is why so many people seem to "hate" classical music. Yet once you talk movie soundtracks, their ears perk up???? Familiarity. (AND....*gasp* maybe doing more "pops" concerts or other things that bring people in?????).

This is a TOTAL rant. Hopefully it made SOME sense.

Back to some tuba playing... (which, I agree.....is more popular now than ever!!! because it's a freaking TUBA!!!!!!)

* ONE MORE THING!

If comparing the success of popular music vs. classical:

Where does pop music make money? Advertisements, cd/itunes sales, merchendise.
Where does classical music make money? Concerts

I don't have data to support this, but I have an inkling that tours are not where bands make their money. It's music sales and merchendise sales. Now, orchestras may not be able to sell the was pop music does, but it just goes to show that concerts only, are a hard way to make money. Just something interesting I thought of while playing.

[JCalkin]

If comparing the success of popular music vs. classical:

Where does pop music make money? Advertisements, cd/itunes sales, merchendise.
Where does classical music make money? Concerts

I don't have data to support this, but I have an inkling that tours are not where bands make their money. It's music sales and merchendise sales. Now, orchestras may not be able to sell the was pop music does, but it just goes to show that concerts only, are a hard way to make money. Just something interesting I thought of while playing.

Independent musicians (self-recorded, promoted) make money from merchandise and CD sales, but it's a paltry sum.

The upper .001% of artists (those with more pull than the RIAA) have good contracts and make some money from CD/iTunes sales.

Most recording artists on a label have been summarily screwed by that label and do in fact make most of their money through touring ticket sales, and have to pay promotion etc. out of their own earnings.

For these artists, the average money made on CD sales is 9 cents per track, and it has to be split up amongst the band members.

all this I learned a couple of years ago at a seminar on copyright and whatnot at the Midwest Clinic. The information may in fact be inaccurate or out of date, but it's what I was told, so I'm throwing it out there.

-J

[pierso20]

If comparing the success of popular music vs. classical:

Where does pop music make money? Advertisements, cd/itunes sales, merchendise.
Where does classical music make money? Concerts

I don't have data to support this, but I have an inkling that tours are not where bands make their money. It's music sales and merchendise sales. Now, orchestras may not be able to sell the was pop music does, but it just goes to show that concerts only, are a hard way to make money. Just something interesting I thought of while playing.

Independent musicians (self-recorded, promoted) make money from merchandise and CD sales, but it's a paltry sum.

The upper .001% of artists (those with more pull than the RIAA) have good contracts and make some money from CD/iTunes sales.

Most recording artists on a label have been summarily screwed by that label and do in fact make most of their money through touring ticket sales, and have to pay promotion etc. out of their own earnings.

For these artists, the average money made on CD sales is 9 cents per track, and it has to be split up amongst the band members.

all this I learned a couple of years ago at a seminar on copyright and whatnot at the Midwest Clinic. The information may in fact be inaccurate or out of date, but it's what I was told, so I'm throwing it out there.

-J

Though, I'm not necessarily talking "only the band". We can also think of it is terms of the "band" as an organization. There are less members to 'feed' with revenue than an orchestra (as an organization).

Either way, it's all about money and marketing. If orchestras were smarter about it, or as pointed out in a previous post, the financial directors made smarter more frugal use of how things are run, then we wouldn't have as many dire business problems. I agree with a pervious post comparing the orchestra business structure to that of many of the motor companies and their ceo's.

I hate to see ANY business go under, though I'm glad I am not pursuing a career in orhcestral playing...at least not for my bread and butter. I have chosen a career MUCH less risky...haha.