As I've indicated previously, I am returning to an interaction with the tuba after a 41-year hiatus (I am currently 64 years old). I switched from clarinet to tuba in high school (in 1960) and played it as my performance instrument at university (until 1970). I achieved a fair degree of competence in these early years, holding my own with some fairly talented folks. But I was self-taught. I never received a lesson, nor did I receive any structured training in tuba fundamentals (aside from the less-than-useful platitudes thrown out by uninformed band directors).
Now, in the initial flowering of my current tuba renaissance, I am determined to backtrack and try to come at tuba playing with more of an understanding of the fundamentals, acoustics, physics, and capacities of this fantastic instrument. I have begun to record my practise sessions with the goal of analytically deconstructing the results. My first objective here was to listen carefully to the sound and try to determine if I was doing all I could to produce the best sound possible. The very first thing that I heard in these recordings, was the quality of the articulation. It was thick and heavy, initializing the sound in an unattractive and messy way. After a bit of Internet research and a serious examination of my mouth and tongue structure, I realized that I was using my tongue improperly. I was tonguing "between the lips." Note - I remember a band director once telling me to tongue as if "I were spitting out a seed."
The correction of bad habits learned long ago is a dispiriting task, but I spent some dark mornings working through this. I can now generally use my tongue in the orthodox manner (ta, or toh, with the tongue on the back of the upper front teeth). But, it seems that I can maintain this only until I get to the F (just below the staff). At this point, no matter what I do, my tongue starts edging forward, until by the time I am in the lower register, it is once again between my lips. Is there a way to ameliorate this, or is this acceptable? Roger Bobo says, "It should also be said that generally the low register usually responds better with the tongue very forward, even between the lips." (http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articl ... tion.shtml" target="_blank" target="_blank).
Thanks
Don
Articulation & the Tongue
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bergland
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David Schwartz
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
Good tone and good air often require that the tongue keep out of the way, and a forward-positioned tongue can make room for the air to pass. If you can make slurred and legato passages sound good, you're playing well and the tongue position is OK. Also, your close-mic's recordings will reveal sounds that disappear in a big room. Keep at it, Don.bergland wrote: . . . no matter what I do, my tongue starts edging forward . . .
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TubaCoopa
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
I think that your band director wasn't entirely incorrect either, just misguided. Achieving a good "tuh" or "ta" sound by its very nature requires a sort of explosion of air. The seed-spitting method achieves this explosion of air, but since you don"t articulate off of the teeth, does not give that hard t sound on the head. Perhaps try a fusion of both techniques, like spitting a seed, but still articulating off of the teeth. It seems strange, but allows for the best of both methods in your articulation.
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imperialbari
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
The old school I was taught after first from my start in 1960 on valved alto trombone asked students to tongue harder, if articulation was sloppy. Missing the very point, that tonguing is a process of moving an air valve. If there is no adequate air support, tonguing at whatever spot of the mouth makes little sense.
Since then I was trained in a school close to singing, where making precise formations of the oral cavity was mentally controlled by thinking in vowels. The northern continental European languages have more vowels than English has. The transcription of the vowel glissando is very different between languages. For me the ultimate descant is iiii, but the English equivalent possibly would be eeee.
In teaching it may be considered a basic rule that all learning happens at the edge of the student’s base of abilities. But moving at the edge makes little sense, if the base isn’t consolidated.
You maybe will serve your development best by restricting you current range to the one you feel comfortable moving within. Get your sound, tonguing, scales, and fingering right within that range, and try to extend it in both directions in chromatic increments. Only try to conquer further range, when the added steps are mastered as comfortably as your original core range. And please be aware that if a given note will not sound right as a long note, it will not work either when subdivided by tonguing.
You haven’t told about your instrument and mouthpiece. One matter I have become increasingly aware about, despite my liking for wide and deep mouthpieces, is that if one is in a situation, where elementary technique is not mastered thoroughly, then a deep mouthpiece isn’t necessarily the best helper.
If you email me via the button to the right of here, I will give you access to my scale and interval routines, which can be downloaded for free.
Klaus
Since then I was trained in a school close to singing, where making precise formations of the oral cavity was mentally controlled by thinking in vowels. The northern continental European languages have more vowels than English has. The transcription of the vowel glissando is very different between languages. For me the ultimate descant is iiii, but the English equivalent possibly would be eeee.
In teaching it may be considered a basic rule that all learning happens at the edge of the student’s base of abilities. But moving at the edge makes little sense, if the base isn’t consolidated.
You maybe will serve your development best by restricting you current range to the one you feel comfortable moving within. Get your sound, tonguing, scales, and fingering right within that range, and try to extend it in both directions in chromatic increments. Only try to conquer further range, when the added steps are mastered as comfortably as your original core range. And please be aware that if a given note will not sound right as a long note, it will not work either when subdivided by tonguing.
You haven’t told about your instrument and mouthpiece. One matter I have become increasingly aware about, despite my liking for wide and deep mouthpieces, is that if one is in a situation, where elementary technique is not mastered thoroughly, then a deep mouthpiece isn’t necessarily the best helper.
If you email me via the button to the right of here, I will give you access to my scale and interval routines, which can be downloaded for free.
Klaus
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iiipopes
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
And now for something completely different: a hard "T" consonant, British-style, with the tip of the tongue against the back of the upper incisors disrupts airflow too much and can create an "airy" or indistinct articulation. Conversely, a "D" articulation, with the top of the tongue against the hard palate right behind the teeth, can produce a slow indistinct articulation.
In the middle is the chinese consonant, which depending on your transliteration, is spelled as either "Tao" or "Dao," where the top forward part of the tongue, just the slightest bit (pun intended) behind the very tip, about the place that used to be considered the center of the "sweet" taste buds, contacts the point where the upper incisors meet the hard palate, provides a clean articulation without undue disruption of the airflow.
In the middle is the chinese consonant, which depending on your transliteration, is spelled as either "Tao" or "Dao," where the top forward part of the tongue, just the slightest bit (pun intended) behind the very tip, about the place that used to be considered the center of the "sweet" taste buds, contacts the point where the upper incisors meet the hard palate, provides a clean articulation without undue disruption of the airflow.
Jupiter JTU1110
"Real" Conn 36K
"Real" Conn 36K
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bergland
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
The incremental approach you suggest sounds interesting and I'll certainly give it a try. I am currently using a Bach 24AW mouthpiece in a BBb Sonora horn. I appreciate your offer to share your scale and interval routines.imperialbari wrote:You maybe will serve your development best by restricting you current range to the one you feel comfortable moving within. Get your sound, tonguing, scales, and fingering right within that range, and try to extend it in both directions in chromatic increments. Only try to conquer further range, when the added steps are mastered as comfortably as your original core range.
You haven’t told about your instrument and mouthpiece. One matter I have become increasingly aware about, despite my liking for wide and deep mouthpieces, is that if one is in a situation, where elementary technique is not mastered thoroughly, then a deep mouthpiece isn’t necessarily the best helper.
If you email me via the button to the right of here, I will give you access to my scale and interval routines, which can be downloaded for free.
Klaus
Thanks
Don
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David
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
Tongue tip placement.
The most important thing to note about single tonging (other than continues air movement) is that the vertical position of the tongue is, by no means, stationary -- it is defined by range, just as in the jaw placement,,, when playing in the low trumpet range, for example, one should tongue like a trumpeter (i.e., "taa"). If this tongue positions is maintained in the middle and the low register, however, you will wind attacks to be indefinite and airy. This is due to tan ineffective air seal. As the jaws moves down for low range, the aperture becomes larger, therefor more tongue surface is required to get a seal. When playing in the lowest pedal range I even have my tongue below my upper teeth like a "th", but never between the lips. This would spell disaster for mid-range attacks. Only enough of the tongue's tip should be used to achieve a complete seal and only the tip of the tongue should touch the lip... the back of the tongue should remain as low as possible (best described as an "aaww" sound) The tip is the only part of the tongue which should move in single tonging. Don't worry-the rest of it will follow.
Although I know some may disagree (particularly trumpet players) I believe that in the bottom to middle range of a low brass instrument is all right, and in fact desirable for the tip of he tongue to touch the back of the upper lip (never between the lips, of course). If you try that as you read this, you will find that, of course, the rest of t your tongue follows and there is a good seal all round. It works. In the middle/bottom range I usually (usually because all mouths are different) recommend tonging in the "joint" where the bottom of the top teeth meets the back of the upper lip. The higher you go from there, the more the tip moves up the teeth to the point of the "t" and the lower you go, the more it move o the "th". You can get away with the "th" in the really low range because you are really blowing your lips forward and that leaves a little space between your lips and teeth that doesn't exist in the upper register.
We all know (or maybe you're now discovering) that a note should never be stopped with the tongue. Believe it or not, though, we all do that a lot. If you are just articulation one note you simply don't push the air any more when you want to stop, that's obvious. The faster you articulate, though, the more the end of one note becomes the beginning of the next. In other words you, keep the air "moving" so the tongue actually seals the end of the first note in a series. Try this interesting "reverse placement" experiment (it's also not a bad way of determining the best placement of the tip). Blow air int the horn (don't buzz) without tonging ("hhhh"). As you do that, cut the air off with your tongue. Most often you will find the most effective articulation position that way. If you reverse this and rituals where the tongue ended up, you'll find a nice clean attack. Now, to see if you really have found "the spot" for mid and low range, try articulations 8 quick "notes" with no buzz (air only). If you hear a "t", the tong is too high. If you hear (and feel) a sort of slap effect and a "bang" on each note after the first, you've found the spot. Remember: the faster you articulate the more the beginning of the second not is actually articulated as the end of the fits. You may have to reread that... That is why you will not hear the "bang" on the first not. Now, do a three part process: push the air, stop with the tongue and release. Finally add the buzz.
Te placement of the tong does not not when produce a "T" sound (except in very high range). It's also not a "B" or a "P" (which is tonging with the lips ) or a 'V" or a light "D" gives a legato tongue. The correct placement gives you a "consonant" that is unlike any other in the English language (though it may exist in other languages) place your tongue at the bottom of the upper lip and vocalize A sound. i guess the closets sound would be a "B", but you should be able to produce this sound while even squeezing your lower lip (don't hurt yourself) I have had students (on rare occasions) vocalize the articulation like this. Vocalize eight sixteenths like this and if you are maintains the air pressure correctly you will find you head almost feels like its vibrating.
The process
tonging is really a three part process that all happens very quickly
1) the tip of the tongue is properly placed
2) there is air pressure behind it
3) the air is released
SO: PLACEMENT, PRESSURE, RELEASE.
Proudly copied from my friend and teacher, John Griffiths.
The most important thing to note about single tonging (other than continues air movement) is that the vertical position of the tongue is, by no means, stationary -- it is defined by range, just as in the jaw placement,,, when playing in the low trumpet range, for example, one should tongue like a trumpeter (i.e., "taa"). If this tongue positions is maintained in the middle and the low register, however, you will wind attacks to be indefinite and airy. This is due to tan ineffective air seal. As the jaws moves down for low range, the aperture becomes larger, therefor more tongue surface is required to get a seal. When playing in the lowest pedal range I even have my tongue below my upper teeth like a "th", but never between the lips. This would spell disaster for mid-range attacks. Only enough of the tongue's tip should be used to achieve a complete seal and only the tip of the tongue should touch the lip... the back of the tongue should remain as low as possible (best described as an "aaww" sound) The tip is the only part of the tongue which should move in single tonging. Don't worry-the rest of it will follow.
Although I know some may disagree (particularly trumpet players) I believe that in the bottom to middle range of a low brass instrument is all right, and in fact desirable for the tip of he tongue to touch the back of the upper lip (never between the lips, of course). If you try that as you read this, you will find that, of course, the rest of t your tongue follows and there is a good seal all round. It works. In the middle/bottom range I usually (usually because all mouths are different) recommend tonging in the "joint" where the bottom of the top teeth meets the back of the upper lip. The higher you go from there, the more the tip moves up the teeth to the point of the "t" and the lower you go, the more it move o the "th". You can get away with the "th" in the really low range because you are really blowing your lips forward and that leaves a little space between your lips and teeth that doesn't exist in the upper register.
We all know (or maybe you're now discovering) that a note should never be stopped with the tongue. Believe it or not, though, we all do that a lot. If you are just articulation one note you simply don't push the air any more when you want to stop, that's obvious. The faster you articulate, though, the more the end of one note becomes the beginning of the next. In other words you, keep the air "moving" so the tongue actually seals the end of the first note in a series. Try this interesting "reverse placement" experiment (it's also not a bad way of determining the best placement of the tip). Blow air int the horn (don't buzz) without tonging ("hhhh"). As you do that, cut the air off with your tongue. Most often you will find the most effective articulation position that way. If you reverse this and rituals where the tongue ended up, you'll find a nice clean attack. Now, to see if you really have found "the spot" for mid and low range, try articulations 8 quick "notes" with no buzz (air only). If you hear a "t", the tong is too high. If you hear (and feel) a sort of slap effect and a "bang" on each note after the first, you've found the spot. Remember: the faster you articulate the more the beginning of the second not is actually articulated as the end of the fits. You may have to reread that... That is why you will not hear the "bang" on the first not. Now, do a three part process: push the air, stop with the tongue and release. Finally add the buzz.
Te placement of the tong does not not when produce a "T" sound (except in very high range). It's also not a "B" or a "P" (which is tonging with the lips ) or a 'V" or a light "D" gives a legato tongue. The correct placement gives you a "consonant" that is unlike any other in the English language (though it may exist in other languages) place your tongue at the bottom of the upper lip and vocalize A sound. i guess the closets sound would be a "B", but you should be able to produce this sound while even squeezing your lower lip (don't hurt yourself) I have had students (on rare occasions) vocalize the articulation like this. Vocalize eight sixteenths like this and if you are maintains the air pressure correctly you will find you head almost feels like its vibrating.
The process
tonging is really a three part process that all happens very quickly
1) the tip of the tongue is properly placed
2) there is air pressure behind it
3) the air is released
SO: PLACEMENT, PRESSURE, RELEASE.
Proudly copied from my friend and teacher, John Griffiths.
What one man can do another can do
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bergland
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Re: Articulation & the Tongue
David:
You have provided some very interesting suggestions and I am anxious to try them out in my practise session tomorrow morning (Monday). I appreciate your energy in offering them. As with all written instructions, there will certainly be some trials in interpreting and implementing them, but I'll work through them and see if they offer a way I can upgrade my current articulation techniques. As I come back at this tuba stuff for the second time in my life, I'll probably discover all kinds of mistakes I made the first time. It's interesting to be presented with the opportunity to see these in such uncanny detail.
Thanks
Don
You have provided some very interesting suggestions and I am anxious to try them out in my practise session tomorrow morning (Monday). I appreciate your energy in offering them. As with all written instructions, there will certainly be some trials in interpreting and implementing them, but I'll work through them and see if they offer a way I can upgrade my current articulation techniques. As I come back at this tuba stuff for the second time in my life, I'll probably discover all kinds of mistakes I made the first time. It's interesting to be presented with the opportunity to see these in such uncanny detail.
Thanks
Don