Thoughts on mouthpieces for students.

[USStuba04]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

[TubaRay]

Keeping the average household budget in mind for a parent to purchase a mouthpiece that will get dropped, and the possibility "Junior" may quit band at some point, and probably doesn't have access to private lessons:

Junior High: Bach 25
Underclassman High school: Conn 7B
Upperclassman High school: Conn 120S
Upperclassman with private lessons: whatever the instructor says
Marching: Kelly 18 for a souzy, Kellyberg for the shoulder "corps" horns. (I am not a fan of anything but Lexan for marching, as it will get dropped.)

Yes, there are tonnes of other mouthpieces out there. And there are the facsimiles. But the facsimiles, such as Blessing, Faxx, etc., are now approaching the price of the real deal "street price," so why bother?

If the budget is greater, or the student has a private instructor, then the universe is wide open.

I am pretty much in agreement with you, right down the line. I usually prefer the Bach 22, myself, but that is a minor point. Excellent rundown.

[TubaRay]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

Here's my flame(and since I live in Texas, it is not difficult to get one started, right now):

I bought a Kellyberg a couple of years ago, with the hopes of it working out. It did not. It doesn't feel the same, and it certainly doesn't produce the same as a standard Helleberg. So....I agree.

[SplatterTone]

Not just face size to consider, but face muscle strength too. After one builds muscle strength, then the fat rimmed mouthpieces get in the way. But when one is a beginning weakling, those fat rims act kind of like a knee brace to help support a flabby mug and assist in better tone until the student has built the muscle strength to no longer need the assist.

Of the fatties, the Yamaha 66D4 was my favorite crutch for about two years until I had the strength to gradually move to narrower rims and bigger diameters. When one needs the help, admit it and get it.

A man's got to know his limitations.
- Harry Callahan (Magnum Force)

[jonesbrass]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

I won't flame you either way . . . when I was with the 76th Army Band we played quite a few outside Christmas gigs with the brass quintet. One particular gig was outside the Emergency entrance to Landstuhl Hospital in sub-freezing weather. My mouthpiece was so cold it practically froze to my face. Needless to say, I started carrying a plastic rim around just in case. Back then, we didn't have the Kelly, we had the "DEG Astro-Nylon" mouthpieces and delrin screw rims for some of the modular mouthpieces. I would not blame anyone for using a Kelly when playing outside in the cold .

[USStuba04]

I agree the Kellys have their place, when it is cold, the Kelly comes out.

I am not sure I completely agree with the whole fat rim crutch thing. Sure maybe it can help some younger students, but for kids with a small face, that fat rim can be in the way ( in the nose). On the other side, there are PLENTY of big name pros that use a fat rim... The Bobo pieces all have thick rims, Jim Self, and then there is that gigantic Deck mouthpiece.

Of course it is complete personal preference and some may feel that the thick rim is in the way, I use to.

[SplatterTone]

On the other side, there are PLENTY of big name pros that use a fat rim... The Bobo pieces all have thick rims, Jim Self, and then there is that gigantic Deck mouthpiece.

Not having a scientific survey of "big name pros" and their MPs in hand, I rely on the fact that, of the available models of MPs out there, the vast majority are not of the 24AW type. I would agree that the Yamaha Jim Self might qualify as a bigger 24AW. I don't agree that the Yamaha Bobo Symphonic qualifies. While there is quite a bit of metal there, it starts high near the inside and rolls away from the face so that maybe only the inner half (if even that much) is in your face. When you look at something like the Yamaha 66D4, not only is the rim wide, but it has a substantial relatively flat area so that most of it presses the face (and it has the student size 66 inner diameter, hence my recommendation for it to go on the list for student consideration).

So, now we throw into the mix the rim contour: Whether the rim is big because of a lot of rounding, or it is big to provide a relatively wide, flat support area for the face. Rim contour opens up another area of discussion.

some may feel that the thick rim is in the way, I used to.

My guess is that this is a common progression. And for the reason I stated.

For what it's worth, I never got along well with what seems to be the standards of Bach 18 / Yamaha 67. But I do just fine with the Kelly 18. I'd use it more, but I tend to get too punchy with it and stick out.

I think mouthpiece choice is a very important consideration for a student; and as the student progresses, the choice should be constanly reevaluated. I think the wrong choice will lead to the student compensating for the inability to use the MP correctly by doing something wrong and getting that ingrained into the subconscious -- like learning the wrong golf swing because you have the wrong clubs.

[USStuba04]

In saying that the Bobo was bigger, i was only speaking of the inner rim diameter (according to multiple charts), the cup is definitely shallower.

Also on the bobo, I see your point as to how it rolls away from the face.

I put a 66 on my order as others mentioned that one as well. definitely will check the 66d4.

I agree about students reevaluating their mouthpiece often (yearly?), their face changes so much between when they start and graduate. That's kind of why I started this thread. Where I live, middle and high schools recommend the same thing. A beginner (<5th-7th grade) does not need to be playing an 18 or Helleberg (unless of course they are >5ft 8").

[tclements]

WARNING! HIGHLY OPINIONATED MATERIAL AHEAD!!!

Please throw away ALL 24AW mouthpieces. I am on a personal mission to rid the tuba world of this abomination!!! Why? I'm glad you asked this question. Here's the SHORT answer:

1 - Diameter too small
2 - Cup too deep for such a small mouthpiece
3 - THROAT too large, for such a small mouthpiece
4 - Rim WAY too wide. REALLY a wide rim on such a small moutpiece? What's the point?

Some time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) someone put in a catalog (you know which one) "Good mouthpiece for a beginner." WRONG, WRONG for all of the above reasons.

Rant over. Now, to answer the REAL question, good beginner mouthieces:

Bach (or Faxx) 18, Helleberg 7B, Smaller Mike Finns & Blokepieces. Doug Elliott 128 rim with N cup, Smaller PT's (sorry I don't know the numbers, there are too many), Yamaha 69C4.

This is a good place to start.

LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!!!

[TubaRay]

WARNING! HIGHLY OPINIONATED MATERIAL AHEAD!!!

Please throw away ALL 24AW mouthpieces. I am on a personal mission to rid the tuba world of this abomination!!! Why? I'm glad you asked this question. Here's the SHORT answer:

1 - Diameter too small
2 - Cup too deep for such a small mouthpiece
3 - THROAT too large, for such a small mouthpiece
4 - Rim WAY too wide. REALLY a wide rim on such a small moutpiece? What's the point?

Some time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) someone put in a catalog (you know which one) "Good mouthpiece for a beginner." WRONG, WRONG for all of the above reasons.

Rant over. Now, to answer the REAL question, good beginner mouthieces:

Bach (or Faxx) 18, Helleberg 7B, Smaller Mike Finns & Blokepieces. Doug Elliott 128 rim with N cup, Smaller PT's (sorry I don't know the numbers, there are too many), Yamaha 69C4.

This is a good place to start.

LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!!!

Sign me up for that mission. I completely agree, and for the reasons you have stated. If you plan to flame Tony, please include me.

[sousaphone68]

I believe the size(diam.) should relate to the kid's face. Some can go with a "full-size" mpc. Others are better off with something smaller. In a generic sense, I'd recommend the Conn Helleberg 7b, or the Bach 22. Bigger face = regular Conn Helleberg or Bach 18. I used to play on Bach mouthpieces. I no longer like them, but then again, I like flat and sharp(no pun intended, here). Flat rim, not rounded. Personally, I don't understand the logic with the Bach 24AW. It is a narrow diameter that is quite deep. Maybe some mouthpiece expert can tell me why that should work well. I believe it is a very poor beginner mouthpiece, and not particularly good for anyone.

OK. Take your marks. Get set. Flame!

I have to agree with let the mouthpiece fit the face I started on what now feels like a very small Denis Wicke 5 but was big when I was 12. I prefered the sound that I got with the narrow rim and sharp edge any time I tried a Bach I felt the sound I got was too wooly I progressed as I got bigger to a DW3 and now use a DW 2L.
Now I also sometomes will use a Besson 24 with its cushion rim for certain pieces and have a Kelly for outdoor winter parades for comfort,

[iiipopes]

Here's my problem with the Kelly...

They do not send the same vibrations (produce the same quality of sound) thru the horn as a brass mouthpiece.

Flame all you want!!

I used a Kelly a lot in the military (venues were always different and the mouthpiece always felt the same on the face) when playing quintet and marching, it was always noticed by the other musicians, especially outside. The quintet HATED it!!

Flame flame flame

Did you wrap the throat of the mouthpiece with a ring of golfer's lead tape in order to stabilize it? That's what these need to regulate the tone and response. No, they are not identical to the conventional mouthpieces that inspire them. No one should expect them to be. But for inclement and extreme weather, I'll take mine any day.

[Donn]

Some experience similar effects with other materials (stainless steel and gold plating). I think some players find it next to impossible to play on Lexan mouthpieces and some see very little difference (if any).

I think your theory might imply the existence of some players who would find it next to impossible to play on anything but a Lexan mouthpiece. Of course, there would be few of them in the real world, since a student would have to learn on a silver plated mouthpiece and would probably not persist long enough to stumble onto this.

I believe the practical difference has to do with differences in friction at the surface contact, just like the gold plating you mention which could hardly be anything else, but on the perceptual side, a heavier mouthpiece might transmit a little more sound directly through teeth and bone to the ear. Ironically, the sousaphone might be the worst place to put a Lexan mouthpiece, in that respect, because of the relatively spongy leadpipe.

[MartyNeilan]

Here's my flame(and since I live in Texas, it is not difficult to get one started, right now):

I bought a Kellyberg a couple of years ago, with the hopes of it working out. It did not. It doesn't feel the same, and it certainly doesn't produce the same as a standard Helleberg. So....I agree.

Not flaming at all, but I think the bolded part explains the difference in sound you are experiencing between Kelly mouthpieces and others. I think the perceived difference in feel affects the way players interact with the mouthpiece. I think it can seriously affect some players and not affect others at all. Like mouthpiece preferences, in general, it is very subjective. Some experience similar effects with other materials (stainless steel and gold plating). I think some players find it next to impossible to play on Lexan mouthpieces and some see very little difference (if any). It's all in how your brain responds to various stimuli, there is no absolute right or wrong in this, there is only personal preference. Just like I have heard students who sound fantastic on a Conn Helleberg (they love the sharp flat rim) and I have seen students who can hardly play on them at all. The mouthpiece is not bad, but it just doesn't work well for some people. I believe the same to be true for the Lexan mouthpieces.

Materials aside, the Kellyberg is not an exact copy of the Helleberg, but a design loosely based on it. I own a stainless steel version besides the plastic one I keep in my car, and in my opinion it is better than the Helleberg currently sold.