Green Slime

[Ben]

Jim - The chemistry of olefins allows for a process called expoxidation and then subsequent dihydroxylation... these types of molecules can then be further oxidized to acids similar to vinegar (read mild). Diol molecules and their more oxidized relatives can coordinate to metals promoting a "leaching" effect. I think the green color is from trace amounts of copper, and the effect may not be terribly significant - no more so than the bacteria chewing up your lunch/beer exhaust and making carboxylic acids... Short answer - I doubt much deterioration from the use of these oils.

tbn.al - let me know how 12 works in the piston horn. It is a good extension of the experiment.

[Ben]

I'm curious what they use. One problem: brass does not rust... Their corossion "inhibitor" may be present to inhibit the degredation of their own synthetic oil, if it is an olefin product. I don't own Yama synthetic, so I won't be able to answer the question.

Not buying it, I'll take plain old hydrocarbon anyday now.

[tbn.al]

That is interesting! Especially the plate test at the end. I didn't see any green slime, only red though.

[Rick F]

I've been using Yamaha Light (YAC-LVO) for about 2 or 3 years. Before that I used Hetman's light, but got tired of the yellow goop that built up after time (it was yellow goop - not green slime on my horn).

[euphomate]

I have similar problems as decribed in my Besson EEb Sovereign and Yamaha 642 euphonium. I use ULTRA PURE valve oil exclusively in both. It is a synthetic oil like Hetmans. Maybe it's something to do with synthetic valve oil and it's combination/reaction to water. I haven't done a comparison test by using a petrochemical oil only.

[Ben]

Good question about the yellow goop vs. green slime. I would guess color is a poor mode of analysis, and the goop and slime are the same material. Just like in people, color really doesn't matter that much. In chemistry we see color in our materials we are making/isolating, but often the color is an extremely minor contaminant. Most processed food is colored by an extremely small amount of dye. Honestly, I don't know. Again, my 2 week experiment that I am going to conclude tomorrow is colorless, again indicating that the color may have something to do with copper/microbes/hygiene in the horn. I may run one more study in the presence of some copper wire, to determine if there is an effect there.

As for Rick seeing a doctor, everyone should get their checkup, and support their local horn wellness specialist.

Have fun with the IWS! I had good times there.

[Steven Noel]

My god man are you Helpless ?? wipe it off clean it up good and play the horn !!!! why all this silly chit chat ,,,,,,it happens to all of brass players , dont keep it going !

[Rick Denney]

Eternally in search of wisdom, I remain
Yours truly,
Snorlax.

Been reading A Confederacy of Dunces lately?

Rick "seeing the influence of Boethius and young I. O'Reilly" Denney

[Ben]

Final Update:

Air exposure over 2 weeks in a glass vial has no detectable degredation of Hetman 1 or 2. Mass loss of the three samples apears consistant with the prior data, Het 1 & 2 are significantly less volatile than the Yamaha piston oil, yet there is significant quantities of the yamaha oil after 2 weeks.

wipe it off clean it up good and play the horn

I agree, but why use an oil that causes this mess?!? Understanding the interactions that are causing the mess may help instrument or lubricant development. We know that good old fashioned valve oil doesn't have this problem - and that is why I use it. All I have done in this study is come to the conclusion that oxygen and oil alone are not responsible for the goop/crud/slime. My mind has already begun to develop other studies to isolate the problem, I just don't know if I'll get around to it.

[tbn.al]

Thanks Ben. If the gunk comes back I'll just

wipe it off clean it up good and play the horn !!!! !

after I've lubed it up with some old fashioned valve oil. It was nice to find out that it's not just me and that others have toe problem with Hetman's. Evidently Steven has no idea of the severity of the problem. Steven, THIS IS NO ORDINARY BRASS PLAYERS GUNK. I'll send you some Hetmans so you can see for yourself. Goodbye.

[kprinz]

Ben I appreciate all of the work that went into your experiments. I'm blown away that my original post generated so much interest and advice...helpful or otherwise. Thanks again. I am planning on switching to another valve oil. I thought I wouls try out the yamaha synthetic. We'll see if it needs any experiments as well.

[Kevin Hendrick]

My mind has already begun to develop other studies to isolate the problem, I just don't know if I'll get around to it.

It just so happens ...



Hope it helps!

[toobagrowl]

I was using Hetman's Classic #3 on my old piston tubas. While it lubricated the valves well and lasted longer than other oils, it also formed greenish-brown crud and slime on and in the pistons. I got tired of having to wipe them. So I cleaned them all really good and started using a 70% baby oil / 30% pure lamp oil formula on the pistons. Works great - keeps them moving fast, clean and smelling good.

I recommend this only for old worn pistons or pistons with looser tolerances.