Willson 2960 Tuning Trigger

[Christopher Gongora]

Hi Folks!

I recently had my local dealer purchase the Willson-Brand factory tuning trigger kit for my 2900. This is the same kit used on the new 2960...the only problem is, both he and I are less than 100% on how to install,and Getzen did not send any schematics along with the kit.

My question is:

Would any of you who own the Willson-Brand trigger system be willing to email me a few snapshots of your horn so that I can forward along to my repair guy?


Thanks in advance,


Christopher Gongora
going.going.gongora@gmail.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

[oedipoes]

You can try and send an email to: mail (at) willson (dot) ch
Mr. Willi Kurath is a friendly person, and will probably be the right person to ask.

Wim

[Amilcare]

I see no great need for most compensating euphs for a trigger setup. Any experienced player can adjust the pitch to the harmonic environment with proper guidance. The greatest problem is that too much emphasis is placed on a mechanical solution to a musical problem.

[Christopher Gongora]

I see no great need for most compensating euphs for a trigger setup. Any experienced player can adjust the pitch to the harmonic environment with proper guidance. The greatest problem is that too much emphasis is placed on a mechanical solution to a musical problem.

Wow, man...thanks for the help.

[Christopher Gongora]

Agreed. And I am very happy that you were able to word your post more objectively than I could have. It's funny how I posted to ask a very specific question, and instead am provided with the opinion that "lipping" and an instrument's pitch tendencies are "musical problems".

Bottom line, my Willson 2900 has very specific pitch tendencies. I bought the factory tuning slide trigger kit. I know how to lip. I prefer not to.

-CG

[pgym]

I see no great need for most compensating euphs for a trigger setup. Any experienced player can adjust the pitch to the harmonic environment with proper guidance. The greatest problem is that too much emphasis is placed on a mechanical solution to a musical problem.

An experience player who is constantly battling the pitch tendencies of an instrument in order to play in tune is wasting effort and energy compared to a player who uses a mechanical solution in order to be able to play in tune while blowing through the center of where the HORN wants to place the note: energy and effort that could otherwise be employed in the interpretive, rather than merely the mechanical, side of the musical endeavor.

Pgym - who wonders whether the poster takes a similar attitude toward compensating and 4-valve non-comps, since both the comp system and the 4th valve are mechanical solutions to a musical problem.

[JTJ]

An experience player who is constantly battling the pitch tendencies of an instrument in order to play in tune is wasting effort and energy compared to a player who uses a mechanical solution in order to be able to play in tune while blowing through the center of where the HORN wants to place the note: energy and effort that could otherwise be employed in the interpretive, rather than merely the mechanical, side of the musical endeavor.

I disagree. To some degree what you are saying has become conventional wisdom, and too fine a hair is being split. Tuning is dynamic, changing constantly with the music. With a trigger or not, a player is always working the tuning tendencies of the horn, the tuning required by where the note played sits in the chord. The famous sharp sixth partial may or may not be sharp, depending on the chord. A good player can use the trigger as an tuning adjunct. A good player can also adjust a triggerless instrument without wasting effort and energy, as long as the instrument meets minimum standards for acceptable euphonium intonation.

It's all about what works for you.

[Amilcare]

I guess I need to be clearer. What all of you describe sounds like Mark Hindsley's "engineer" approach to tuning. The slide adjustment sounds like you really want to play trombone;-)

Seriously, too much of real musicianship has been lost due to the short-term goals in the schools. Professional performers have always treat intonation as an organic situation. When Amilcare Ponchielli took over the band school in Cremona, the first person he hired was a teacher of solfege. In order to play in tune, one must IMAGINE the pitch. If the exact circumstances of a note are unknown, then the next time it is played, it will be correct.

When asked how he heard notes, Arnold Jacobs allowed that he solfeged everything. I prefer to keep the mechanics of this as simple as possible.

BTW, as a trombonist, I place the slide as close to the exact position as possible. When I'm really in shape, I can play nearly any note anywhere on either instrument.

I never noticed before, but Jay Friedman is even more of a euph player on trombone than I. He literally makes no discernible slide adjustments when he plays. He seems to play exactly seven positions. Period;-)

[PMeuph]

Hi Folks!

I recently had my local dealer purchase the Willson-Brand factory tuning trigger kit for my 2900. This is the same kit used on the new 2960...the only problem is, both he and I are less than 100% on how to install,and Getzen did not send any schematics along with the kit.

My question is:

Would any of you who own the Willson-Brand trigger system be willing to email me a few snapshots of your horn so that I can forward along to my repair guy?


Thanks in advance,


Christopher Gongora
going.going.gongora@gmail.com" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

2 Questions that are not going to answer your question (This post has gotten off-track anyways) but here goes...

1. Have you e-mailed Willson to ask them for pictures or instructions? (If they sold the kit I imagine it is not the first time they have had this request)
2. How good is your repair guy? (This question is more rhetorical. But, you want to make sure that the guy installing the trigger is very precise with slide alignment, or else you might as well not get the trigger anyways)

[Amilcare]

I suggest you lose your stupidity. If you knew what was going on, you'd do better.

Jay and I used to play 4tets together.

[PMeuph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggXmKPMaHMo" target="_blank

[Amilcare]

I'm sorry to have been so cross.

There is no smugness. Only a lifetime that includes Special Band membership and a lot of experience.

To my knowledge, few of the Special Band members add a tuning contraption to their equipment. The really important part of what I wrote was lost.

Mechanics matter little. If a player like a Herserh or Pokorny rides a slide - fine.

Another story: Herseth's basement in Oak Park is festooned with "green" trumpets sent for his approval. He can and does pick one up occasionally to demonstrate for a student. It still is the same as the matched set of Bach trumpets he kept downtown.

[Amilcare]

The point I was making is that if one knows the right note, he'll play it.

Jay started as a euph player and plays trombone very well by lipping notes in tune as do most sophisticated euph players.

The problem is that all the tools and mechanics will never replace a musician who knows the right note before he must play it. This includes all of the special adjustments one needs to essay just temperament, the tuning of professionals.

I hope this clarifies my thoughts. Great players will be great. Tools can only help those who know how to use them. Crutches help if you have a broken leg, but it's a terrible way to learn to walk.

[Amilcare]

I see one of the posters here has a 3-valve compensating Besson. The disappearance of this instrument has been due to idiot teachers who see pros with 4-valve and insist all of their students have them.

These horns need serious work to be useful. 98.7% of band literature does not require the extra range, and 99.999% of public school students never play them correctly.

Choosing one of these instruments is demanding.

BTW, I was in Paris at the Garde Republicaine band. Sadly, their horns are compensating Saxhorns. I was hoping they might have kept the old horns.

[PMeuph]

I see one of the posters here has a 3-valve compensating Besson. The disappearance of this instrument has been due to idiot teachers who see pros with 4-valve and insist all of their students have them.

These horns need serious work to be useful. 98.7% of band literature does not require the extra range, and 99.999% of public school students never play them correctly.

Choosing one of these instruments is demanding.

BTW, I was in Paris at the Garde Republicaine band. Sadly, their horns are compensating Saxhorns. I was hoping they might have kept the old horns.

In my opinion, the 3-valve compensator is one of the best horns out there. It is the perfect parade horn. (Light, in tune, good even tone, no quirky notes, easy high range) I have only encountered one or two situations where an arranger had put a low Eb (I played it up the octave.)

In Canada, because instrument companies have less presence in the market, horns are usually more expensive. As such, schools usually can't afford "pro" horns. I have never seen a local middle school or high school with anything else than a YEP-201 or YEP-321. (In 2004, I was quote $11,000 for a YEP-842s at a local(back then) music store, the YEP-321 was just over $3000 with taxes.) I waited several years and bought all my horns online.

[tclements]

I have a GREAT trigger set up on my Hirsbrunner euph. If you want photos, email me offline - ttuba@comcast.net" target="_blank

[oldbandnerd]

I play a 1976 Boosey&Hawkes Imperial 3+1 compnesator. I wish I had a tuning trigger on it. It has some intonation quirks that I can't overcome.
- My concert pitch Eb(top staff line) can be very,very sharp and I will pull the 1st valve tuning slide ( yup ... just like a tuba player) out when I can just to play that one note. It has to go back in or it will throw off the other notes played on that valve. I know this is one of those notes that can be off on a euphonium but it seems to be really bad for me. I have never been able to determine if it just me or the horn. I just make the adjustment and live with it.

- I also have to play concert pitch G on 3rd instead of the 1/2 combination to play it in tune. I leave the 3rd valve slide pulled all the time because I don't use it hardley at all and it doesn't affect anything else. Again,I am not sure if the problem is me or the horn ... I just pull the slide and live with it.

In this video of Ken C. Wood playing his Imperial you can see him using a 1st slide trigger ( at 2:13 ). I wouldn't mind having one of those on mine.It do it for me !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JjZJwyg ... re=related" target="_blank

[Bob Kolada]

Oldbandnerd, playing it 4 or 13 might fix that Eb. Not ideal but at least it's a simple punch buttons solution...

[PMeuph]

I play a 1976 Boosey&Hawkes Imperial 3+1 compnesator. I wish I had a tuning trigger on it. It has some intonation quirks that I can't overcome.
- My concert pitch Eb(top staff line) can be very,very sharp and I will pull the 1st valve tuning slide ( yup ... just like a tuba player) out when I can just to play that one note. It has to go back in or it will throw off the other notes played on that valve. I know this is one of those notes that can be off on a euphonium but it seems to be really bad for me. I have never been able to determine if it just me or the horn. I just make the adjustment and live with it.

- I also have to play concert pitch G on 3rd instead of the 1/2 combination to play it in tune. I leave the 3rd valve slide pulled all the time because I don't use it hardley at all and it doesn't affect anything else. Again,I am not sure if the problem is me or the horn ... I just pull the slide and live with it.

G is suppose to be 3, 1-2 will always be sharp. The companies that design fingering charts are wrong. (The logic behind my statement is as follows. 2 is a semi tone of Bb, 1 is a full tone. but for acoustical reasons 1 tone plus 1/2 tone do not equal 1.5 tone.However 3 is equal to 1.5 tones. (the length of 1+2 is shorter than the total length of 3)see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36275&start=12#p318369" target="_blank

As Bob stated,stated 1+3 or 4 might work. I have used 1+4 often and don't find it too bad (I played F with 4) (I played on a 74 imperial)

[tclements]

I really don't like using 'alternate' fingerings, especially on euphonium. I'd rather play the 'natural' fingerings and use a simple tuning jigger to adjust the length of the instrument so that I am always playing the 'note the horn wants to play.'