Fixed Bell vs Detached

[TubadudeCA]

I've been doing some hunting around for some recording basses to add to my collection, and was wondering what kind of tonal or response differences there might be between a Fixed bell vs a Detachable one.

[pjv]

Hi

It would probably be quicker to use the TubeNet Forum Search Machine. Its a subject thats been discussed several times before.

Suffice to say; two identical tubas are never exactly alike and often VERY different. A front bell, even if fixed, sounds different than a detachable. It seems logical that the response would differ. I think King was the only manufacturer of a fixed front bell.

Furthermore, if one were to make (in this day and age) a serious high quality tuba with a detachable bell, one might expect a more sophisticated coupling system then the (most probably) out-dated 3 screw system on most sousaphones.

Cheers,
Pat

[jstrother123]

I have a Marzan slant rotor in BBb with both bells and it is very handy to be able to change bells depending on the venue. For my church orchestra or community band which has a lot of woodwinds, I go with the upright bell. For my brass jazz group or if I am playing outdoors, recording bell. No intonation issues have been noticed, the only difference is whether the sound is more directional or not.

Jim

[Dan Schultz]

I have bell-front and upright tubas. As others have already mentioned... I use either depending on the venue... generally bell-front for outside and indoor Dixieland or jazz. Upright bell for concert band things and small ensembles.

The only difference I see is which direction the sound projects and little to do with timbre. On recordings both types of bells sound the same.

[iiipopes]

My 186 has two bells: the original 22 inch recording bell, and a cut down St Pete 16 1/2 upright. Because the throat of the St Pete was narrower, it was cut a little short when I got it, and Dan Schultz made me a longer tuning slide to fit. Because of the shift in proportion, with the recording bell, the horn plays with a little more "open" tone and the predictable "flat-fifth-partials," especially with my custom Kanstul 18-style mouthpiece. With the upright bell and my Curry hybrid funnel 128D, it has more of the "point-and-shoot" characteristics, and is darker, looking "East" in tone towards Alex. But with the nodes shifted, the lower range can be sharp if you don't relax into the notes, and 2nd space C is right on, midline Db is lippable, and only midline D needs the alternate 1+2 fingering.

So my differences are as much a function of the the tubing in a different place as the actual tonality.

I'm with Dan in that I use the upright mostly in concert band settings, and the recording for outdoors, parades, etc., and one semi-annual gig on a stage with lots of curtains and set backdrops that the sound gets buried if I don't use the recording bell to get it out front.

Let me rephrase an earlier line: the bell was so short the horn was not really playable with the main slide having to be pulled to within a fraction of its life. Dan made the horn playable for me, taking extra time to find just the right old main crook that isn't made anymore, and interpreting my rough diagram as to how much extra slide I thought I needed to perfection. Now, with his slide, I'm @ 5/8 to 3/4 inch out for A=440 at room temperature, just as I should be.

[TheHatTuba]

How many fixed bell recording tubas are there?

[pjv]

The advantages of a fixed bell are numerous of coarse. I like the fact that I can turn the bell in the direction thats best suited for the hall I'.m playing in. And, if you hold you tuba at about an 80% angle like I do, turning the bell all the way to the right points the sound upwards;

however,

if I'm not mistaken the subject wasn't really about front-bell vs upright, but fixed vs detached. That could even be a detachable upright. Within this context there are advantages to having a detachable front bell as all these gentlemen will testify.

But has anybody been able to compare response differences between a fixed and an upright bell?

-Pat

[pjv]

The advantages of a fixed bell are numerous of coarse. I like the fact that I can turn the bell in the direction thats best suited for the hall I'.m playing in. And, if you hold you tuba at about an 80% angle like I do, turning the bell all the way to the right points the sound upwards;

however,

if I'm not mistaken the subject wasn't really about front-bell vs upright, but fixed vs detached. That could even be a detachable upright. Within this context there are advantages to having a detachable front bell as all these gentlemen will testify.

But has anybody been able to compare response differences between a fixed and an upright bell?

-Pat

[Rick Denney]

But has anybody been able to compare response differences between a fixed and an upright bell?

This is not what you mean. Most upright bells ARE fixed.

I don't think the comparison is really possible. There are too many other differences between one instrument and the next. I've played my York Master, with its detachable bell, in comparison with a B&M Symphonic 5500, which has a fixed bell. Those instruments were made in the same factory, using mostly the same tooling and they have a very similar taper design and layout. But the bell weight is different (not just because of the attachment feature), and, most importantly, the bell taper is different. The throat is a bit constricted on the York Master to reduce the diameter at the attachment point. The larger throat of its sister instruments creates a little more open sound, in my opinion.

The King is another example. One might compare the older 2341 with its detachable bell with a newer 2341 with its fixed bell, but the geometry of the bottom bow and bell are different enough between those two to preclude a reasonable comparison. That said, I've played (a very few) King 1241 and 2341 tuba with detachable bells that I thought made bigger and more open sounds than a modern 2341, and many that did not. I'm not sure I could find an attribute that was different based on having a bell attachment point.

Rick "who has seen at least a couple of big Holtons with fixed forward bells" Denney

[pjv]

Agreed.

As I mentioned, even 2 identical horns (same make, model and year) aren't even alike. But since TubadudeCA specifically referred to a comparison with a "fixed" bell, I was interested if anybody has been diddling around in that field.

There must be somebody who's felt the itch to have their detachable bell soldered on permanently in the hope that it might improve the way the horn plays. I'd be interested to know if the difference was negligible or not.

Eh, but not enough to have my 1930 Conn 36J bell welded on.

Cheers,
Pat

[Tubacube]

Detachable bells are are a "must" for some recording basses just to get through the doorway!

It's a Martin with a 30" bell allegedly played withe Spike Jones Band.

[Dan Schultz]

There's an Eb King with a detachable recording bell on Ebay at the moment. This is the first Eb King I've seen with such a bell. I've owned several FIXED recording bell Eb Kings.