quick question

[daktx2]

is the besson 7065 a compensating horn? and how does it compare to other horns in its price range?

[Bob Mosso]

is the besson 7065 a compensating horn? and how does it compare to other horns in its price range?

Search down a bit for the thread "Opinion: YEP321 or BE7065?"

The BE7065 is non-comp.

After a bit of research compairing non-comp euphs, my conclusion/opinion would be (best to worst):
Willson 2704 approx $3400
Yamaha YEP-321 approx $1750
Besson BE7065 approx $2000
then, everything else

Regards,
Bob

[JB]

i'd hate to burst in(well not really) but what does compensating and non-compensating mean?

Try google. Loads of information there for you.

[Lew]

Here's one of the best explanations of compensating isntruments I know of on the web.

http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm

A compensating instrument refers to various methods to add tubing to certain valve combinations to bring them in tune. The system used on most compensating wuphoniums was invented by Blaikley (sp?) in the late 1800s.

[Chuck(G)]

But, what excactly is compensating on the horn?

Okay, one more time.

The term "compensating" refers to the fact that the master valve (3 on a 3-valve compensator or 4 on 4-banger) adds extra tubing to the other slides to compensate for a simple arithmetic problem that crops up whenever you have multiple valves.

Consder a 4-valve non-compensating BBb tuba. Each valve has its branch tuned to lower the pitch by a certain amount from BBb. In other words, you tune the 1st valve to produce an in-tune Ab, the second to produce an in-tune A, the third valve can be tuned either to produce an in-tune F# (in combination with the 2nd valve) or a G by itself. The fourth valve you tune to produce a nice in-tune F.

So far, so good, using one valve at a time, you can produce various in-tune notes. Using them in combination, however, is a problem.

If you've tuned valve 4 to produce an in-tune low F, it should add about 197.2 cm to the acoutical length of the tuba. SImilarly, to produce in in-tune Ab, your first valve will add about 72.1 cm to the length of your tuba. Your second valve will have about 35 cm of tubing on it to produce an in-tune low A.

Okay, now, consider what happens when you try to finger a low Eb. Physics says that we have to add 293.6 cm to a BBb bugle to get an in-tune low Eb. So how do we do this?

Well valves 1 and 4 in combination will add 72.1+197.2 = 269.3 cm, which is too short and will produce a note that's entirely too sharp. Okay, so lets add valve 2 to the combination (124) which is 35+72.1+197.2 = 304.3, which is too long and will result in a too-flat Eb.

What happened?

Well, the first valve slide was tuned to cause a desecent of two semitones in pitch based on a horn pitched in BBb. But the moment, we pushed the 4th valve down, we had a tuba in FF, not BBb. So the first valve is now way too short for an FF tuba.

So, what to do?

We can pull slides to compensate, but a tuba isn't a trombone and fiddling with slides constantly can get to be a real drag.

We can add a fifth valve and make it longer than the normal 1st valve such that it and the 4th will produce an in-tune Eb.

The alternative is to have the 4th valve run the airstream through the valves again and add a bit to each of the first 3 valves to compensate, such that 1+4 will give you an in tune Eb. Pretty clever, huh? Of course, this means more twists and turns in the plumbing, which makes for a slightly less resonant (i.e. "stuffy") feel to the horn.

Well, so which is better--a fifth valve or a compensation system? It's a matter of taste, apparently. Euphonium players tend to prefer compensating instruments, while tuba players seem to prefer non-compensators (i.e. a 5th and maybe a 6th valve).

[Chuck(G)]

uh..between.. telling me the 3rd or 4th valve is the compensating valve would have worked. but.. why would you get a non compensating tuba/euph i it wouldnt ever play in tune?

We don't live in a black-and-white world. Many players can get a good low Eb on a 4 valve non-compensating BBb tuba by fingering 124 and lipping up (or 24 and lipping down). After all, the note starts in your head, right?

[Chuck(G)]

So a non-compensating tuba's valve length is set to a stanerd, not set to play in tune?

Please go back and re-read my original long reply and think about it. Using valves in combinations, not one at a time is what gets you in trouble.

And a compensator doesn't address all of the combinatorial problems. As a matter of fact, on a Eb compensator, the combination 134 is just as out of tune as the 13 combination on a BBb tuba.

[Chuck(G)]

im not exactly sure still..

so.. compensating valves are there as a extra valve to make other valve's notes play closer if not exactly in tune.

but in non compensating valved instruments, they're there for just notes.

Let me rephrase. The master valve on a compensating (Blakely) instrument re-routes the airstream to go through a second set of ports on the other valves, which allows extra tubing to be brought into play to correct intonation automatically when the master valve (3 or 4) and any of the other valves are depressed.

For example, a Bb played as 1+3 on a 4 valve compensating Eb horn will be just as sharp as it wouild be if played as 1+3 on a 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) valve non-compensating instrument . However, on a 3-valve compensating Eb, the Bb will be much better in tune played as 1+3, because valve 3 is the master valve.

As a matter of fact, a 3-valve compensating instrument has the potential of playing better in tune across its range than does a 4-valve compensating instrument. But then, there's that "hole" in the range between 123 and the open pedal...

Note that on a Blakely compensator (which is usually what's meant by "compensating"), all of the fingerings not involving the master valve or that involving only the master valve do not bring the compensating mechanism into play so there's no difference between the two types in those cases.

On uncompensated horns, extra valves (such as 5th and 6th valves) are usually added to provide a manual compensation facility.