Besson " FB " Question

[Rick Denney]

I wonder why these are set so high ?

One of the great mysteries of socialism.

Cliff Bevan even wrote about it the Besson design putting the mouthpiece at mid-forehead.

I would invest in a Baltimore Brass playing stand.

I once owned a Besson Stratford Bb, which is basically the same instrument though uncompensated, and probably made to be cheaper in other ways, too (such as a tuning slide in the leadpipe). Mine had been used as an offensive weapon in some war or another, judging from the 174,395 dents. But it was all I head for my comeback to tuba playing, so I made it work. It had three basic problems: 1.) It would not accept a mouthpiece to my liking, and finding a Wick in those days (many years before Al Gore invented the internet) required knowing about it and then knowing where to send off to get it, 2.) the instrument played generally flat (probably because of the mouthpiece problem), and 3.) the mouthpiece hit me mid-forehead. At the same time I had the ball removed (there's room for only two in that vicinity), I had the tech cut about two inches off the leadpipe where it went into the tuning slide, and replace the receiver. That fixed all the problems in one go. Then, I shortened the valve tubing on two of the valves, so that the 2-3 combination conformed to some semblance of a western diatonic tonality, and then it was elevated from complete crap to merely mediocre. I didn't miss it after I eventually replaced it, but when I offered it in trade for some other instrument, the guy who received it played it for a few minutes and pronounced it the best in-tune cheapie Besson he'd ever played. The three-valve compensators were far better, and in terms of intonation probably the best of the lot.

Rick "who owns and loves his extremely battered old New Standard euphonium" Denney

[imperialbari]

You possibly would find the leadpipe in the right place, if you didn’t sit bent over like on your racing bike when playing tuba.

I think the French-British oldies made tall tubas to avoid bending bows. There are two bows less on the Bessons than on the usual compact American designed tuba (at least when it comes to BBb).

K

[jamsav]

I think our resident genius Mr Denney has made the call. As Tubassists are no longer available, I'll get to Baltimore brass for a stand . Played a sit down, outdoor Vet Day job and had the chair turned sideways and that was okay . Only way I could get my fat a%$ and the tuba on the chair...the performance was a show up and read , mostly watered down arrangements of old patriotic marches but , when Them Basses got passed out and it was to be our finishing piece , I started to drool !! . I was on my tip toes to point that bell forward...wow , what a hoot . Typical Besson stuffy C# and B natural , but this horn can honk ! I've had the dents handled on the bell and bugle portion of the horn, now its back to the body shop for the dents around the first bend. Thanks guys ! ...

[royjohn]

Until the past few days, due to four major diaphragm surgeries this year [that's another post], I haven't been able to play tuba. Breaking out the 1970 Besson tuba I got off ebay last year today, I find that it is a 4-790 [3+1 BBb] according to this thread. Like Rick Denney, I find my old Besson is mostly uniformly flat [about ten cents using my Benge 24AW or my Kellyberg]. Using a smaller shank old Lyle meant for my 1913 Keefer Eefer that goes into the receiver [converted to large American shank] about a half inch further improves the intonation somewhat, but that mouthpiece is pretty small for such a big horn and is probably not the right one for it.

My question is, is there a Wick or something else for this horn that might improve the intonation, is the problem my poor chops, or will it be necessary to chop off some tubing to get this thing in tune? Any info on this model is greatly appreciated --- I can't find much info on it. Yes, it is heavy and the mpc receiver is high, but I can work around this and enjoy the horn, if I can get it to play halfway right.

Best,

[Ken Herrick]

I suggest you take a look at Blokes post about 3+1 compers and felts. Poor alignment could be a real cause of these tuning problems.

[royjohn]

I didn't make myself very clear. My Besson 4-790 did have it's receiver replaced with a standard American receiver before I got it. It got sent from the seller directly to a repairman before it came to me. As I recall [it's been a couple of years ago] some concerns were expressed by folks on one or another of the forums about changing the receiver, so the repairman, in another city, had some experienced tuba players try the tuba out both ways before making the final repair. They agreed the tuba sounded good with the new receiver. That's one reason I thought it might be my mouthpiece. I also seem to recall some discussion about the Wick 1 being "the" mouthpiece for this horn, solving problems extant with other 'pieces.

I will check out the felts issue and see if it seems to make any difference tomorrow. Thanks for the input so far.

royjohn

[iiipopes]

NO! Since he's had his receiver changed to a .520 "standard" receiver, the no-letter models will go all the way down and not seat. He now needs a Wick 1L to go with the .520 receiver.

If this doesn't work, and the felts don't work, then the horn needs to be checked. You haven't said if this is a 17 inch or 19 inch bell. The 19 inch bell was simply grafted onto the first generation Sovs without retooling, and they are all flat, needing the "cut" to get them back up to pitch if your horn is one of these that has never been altered.

Other causes can be the usual leaks or obstructions, or even rotational alignment of the valves as well as vertical alignment.

[imperialbari]

Evaluating the flatness of any brass instrument within days after resuming playing disrupted by major surgery to muscles important for ones breathing is a very daring task very likely leading to wrong conclusions. The tech type solutions suggested are not at all wrong. Only they should not be applied until muscle strength and muscle coordination is fully and solidly re-trained. I sometimes play during less strong periods, but I don’t cut any instrument to compensate for my hopefully temporary shortcomings.

Klaus

[tofu]

My question is, is there a Wick or something else for this horn that might improve the intonation, is the problem my poor chops, or will it be necessary to chop off some tubing to get this thing in tune? Any info on this model is greatly appreciated --- I can't find much info on it. Yes, it is heavy and the mpc receiver is high, but I can work around this and enjoy the horn, if I can get it to play halfway right.

Best,

I have used both a Wick 1 and 2 on my '71 17 inch bell 3 valve comp New Standard, but what works best for me is the modified Schilke 67 from the early 70's that Reginald Schilke did for me way back. The thin walled shank is cut maybe a half inch shorter and the resulting intonation is excellent across the range. I would place the mouthpiece size wise between the Wick 1 and 2. It gives a very tight focused powerfull sound and allows me to make the instrument sound large or small. It really sings in the upper range and blows freely in the low range with no stuffiness. My experience is that these horns are sensitive to proper valve alignment.

If you are not using a stand for this instrument I would highly recommend it. Not only for your personal comfort, but also for proper breath support. I have found that the big Bessons really require proper breath support to achieve the best intonation and a playing stand makes that a lot easier to achieve. I would suggest really giving yourself some time to get your chops back before cutting your horn.

Good Luck!

[Steven Noel]

Good Old Klaus ! he always knows !! smart man there good to have him around ! bravo Klaus !!

[iiipopes]

Klaus is, of course, correct. I didn't pick up from the OP that it had been so soon afterwards picking up the horn. A Wick 1L and a few months of consistent playing will give a better idea of the pitch of the horn.

[royjohn]

Thanks for the helpful replies. I don't think the valves are leaking. They appear shiny and polished and the repairman who worked on the horn before I got it did not advise replating. I'll check further by pulling the first valve slide, covering the outgoing port and blowing into the leadpipe --- that's what I was taught to do with trumpets and I assume it works with tubas also.

Playing around with raising and lowering the valves by unscrewing the valve tops or the buttons didn't help and merely made the horn flatter. Regardless, a set of those "blokefelts" are probably in my future. I like the idea of neoprene instead of that compressable, deteriorating felt.

I found a support for the tuba and also practiced a little and it does appear that the notes are coming up to pitch. Since my other two horns, the Keefer Eefer and an old beater Couesnon BBb, were also flat at the first go, probably I am just out of practice. I'll just see what happens in a week or two.

I did a little research. A one hundred cent interval is 5.94% of the bottom note. In the lower reaches of the horn, the eight or ten cents I was flat wouldn't be that noticeable [0.6%x120cps=0.72cps]. I do want to play in tune, but how close can you expect to come? I'm thinking that within five cents is pretty good, but I don't know.

I don't like the tone I'm hearing much so I'm thinking of replacing the Benge 24AW I'm using with a Wick 1L for starters to see if that makes any difference [cup vs. funnell]. A pretty cheap experiment. Maybe the hollowness in the tone will also go away with practice.

I had thought that this "FB" marked tuba from about 1970 by serial number was a 4-790, but I see a similar model from the 70's advertised as a 226 at Wichita Band Instruments, so now I'm confused again. Is this 3+1 comp from the 70's a 4/4 horn or would it be considered bigger than that?

Thanks again for the help. Any further replies are also appreciated.

[royjohn]

The serial number is 483448, inscribed vertically on the back of the bell. The front of the bell has the typical "BESSON" in the same script as my 1940's Besson 2-20 trumpet. There's also the scroll that says 50 medals of honor, the script "FB" and , below the name Besson, it says "London-New York-Paris" and, below that, "Made in England." The bell is 17 inches and the tuba is a 3+1 comp in silver with the famous ball on the bottom. Any info you could provide would be appreciated. At one point I found a photo of a British contesting band from the 70's and there was my tuba, but I can't find the picture again. On this basis I'm guessing it is whatever the top of the line instrument was in 1970 --- the Besson New Standard or B&H Imperial.

I have another real puzzler for you . . . . I bought the horn from someone in East Texas. The silver plating is really rough and there are lots of dents even after the repairman took out all reachable big dents, so I'm thinking it was a school horn. Engraved in big letters above the Besson label is "OPSB - OPW-70" but I don't know what this might mean. My guess was "Orleans Parish State [or Secondary] Band - Orleans Parish ???? 1970" but I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

So far the horn plays a lot better than I do and is a pretty macho instrument, so I'm happy. Now if I can only learn to play it better . . . .

[iiipopes]

Yes, that was the top of the line BBb tuba Besson made at that time. Mine is a few months newer, but also came out of a Texas school also, with similar wear. I'm wondering if there was a distributor at the time that got a school contract or such to bring in as many as Besson would ship, because most of the comps from this era I've seen for sale on the forums and the online auction sites in this country seem to come from Texas schools.

The tuba, if it still has its original small .490 receiver, works best with a Wick 1 mouthpiece. Most people have the ball surgically removed, before it "surgically" removes something else!

[MikeW]

I haven't played a BBb for decades, but I seem to remember that holding the brute wasn't easy.
I used to sit well forward on the chair, then loop a leather strap loosely around my thighs, just above the knees. With the knees well apart, the strap forms a nest the tuba can sit in, bringing the mouthpiece into comfortable reach for me (I'm 5' 9").

Alternatively, there used to be tuba stands that look like a sawn off music stand, with a cup on the top, into which the famous nut-buster fits, like a ball-and-socket joint (which is probably what the nut-buster was originally intended for). If you feel like improvising a stand, find an old cornet or trumpet mouthpiece with a cup that fits the nut-buster, cut the top off of a sturdy music stand, slip the shank of the cornet mouthpiece over the leg of the stand, and solder/braze it on.

[MikeW]

If these were Besson instruments:

... one was small, I 'd say 1/2 size 3 valve

Possibly a Besson 2-20 - they're tiny, and the schools must have been buying them back then (that's where mine came from)

... one was a 3/4 , 3 valve

Maybe something like a Besson Westminster/B&H Regent, or something cheaper like a Besson 600 ? or the school's back then were buying the 3-valve Couesnon Eb (again, that's where mine came from)

... two were monster 4 valve 4/4s ( think British Royal Marine Band ).

Probably Besson New Standard

[Ken Herrick]

The Besson New Standard and Boosey & Hawkes Imperials were quite good instruments for their time - still not the worst thing going.

Around the mid 60's, not sure how long before or after, there was a US distributor F Bruno & Sons, based in Texas which seemed to pretty much cover the US market with the Bessons. This could explain the FB. They came standard with a tuning bit. For some time they took the English size shank but by 63 one for American shank became available. Probably there would be a sousaphone bit which would fit and do the job. Otherwise the receiver could be reamed out or swapped. The bit greatly improved ergonomics , especially for the recording bell models.
The most common "problem" with those horns was that the long valves were also a bit tight and needed lapping in to get them running smoothly. A common "home remedy" was to work up a lather of LAVA soap and apply it to the valves as a lapping compound. Actually did the job pretty well.

My high school bought a new 3v recording model in 62 which I used for a year until I got my old King. The University of Illinois, among other,s had a full set for their bands back then. Interlochen had about a dozen.
While in the Australian Army in late 70', early 80's we had B&H Imperials - 3v BBb and 4v Eb. I toook to the Eb as they were a LOT easier for marching

In the early 80's the band did a recording of marches of Alford and Sousa. For the Alford side I used the Boosey and switched to my King Monster rotary BBb for the Sousa. The overall sound was distinctly different. Besides myself there was one B&H BBb and an Eb plus 1 string bass.

The B&H had that horrible ball on the bottom which was for a carry strap. Cutting it off helped make it easier for us shorter people to play the things and saved wear and tear on chairs as well.