Sousa's sousaphones?

[Wyvern]

Certainly, no offense intended.

L, Sorry if I sounded offended. I guess a few recent 'attacks' have made me a bit over defensive!

[SousaSaver]

Thank you Ian for bringing this discussion back on topic AND thanks for the insight. Your knowledge of this subject is excellent.

[imperialbari]

As much as I love sousaphones: they are even more impractical in storing and transportation than are tubas.

So when the Sousa band reportedly marched VERY rarely compared to its packed concert schedule, why then at all use sousaphones over tubas? Of course raincatchers can have their bells set more vertical than most tubist want for their tuba bells during actual playing, but are these relatively few degrees worth the effort?

Klaus

[sloan]

This thread is a fine example of why the internet is not a scholarly source, kids.

After years of primary source research on Sousa and his band, the cringe factor here is off the charts...

Perhaps you would be kind enough to share a citation (or three) to the definitive (available) source material?

[imperialbari]

It is generally considered bad style to ask for school assignments being done by other TubeNetters. Yet this forum also in general is very helpful. I am most surprised by an attitude of knowing, but not telling. It is perfectly OK not to tell everything one knows, but I find it bad taste to tell somebody wrong without pointing towards the right answer.

Another music, but not tuba, related list had a poster, who basically answered by saying: Buy my books, buy my recordings, and/or sign up as a student with me. That poster didn’t get very popular.

Klaus

[Paul Scott]

It is a relatively well-documented fact that Sousa did indeed prefer and use upright-belled tubas and sousaphones. The danger always lies in words like "always", "never" and the like. Renowned and careful researchers like Mr. Bierley tend to avoid such absolutes and I believe this reflects their wisdom, since thorough research will often show exceptions. Mr. Bierley states on page 249 of his book, "The Incredible Band of John Philip Sousa" that "Sousa did not use the bell-front type" (referring to sousaphones). Sousa DID use a bell front sousa temporarily on at least one occasion while a "raincatcher" was being built (this is Mr. Bierley's explanation). A photo of the 1921-22 band shows the forward bell instrument (on p. 34 of the same book). So we see that there is a difference between "did not" and "never did".

Photos of the band show that Sousa used upright tubas and one "raincatcher" sousaphone until the 1920s when "all-sousaphone" (raincatchers) sections are seen. Klaus, I have a thought in response to your "why sousaphones?" question. I think that a big part of that decision may have been marketing/showmanship: here's an instrument that is actually named after the band leader (and they do look darn good)! As to why Sousa did not use an "all-sousaphone" section before that I will use an expression that I encourage others to use when appropriate: I don't know.

[Dan Schultz]

It is generally considered bad style to ask for school assignments being done by other TubeNetters. ....

There were times not too long ago when Sean would simply delete posts that asked for classroom help.

[imperialbari]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jan2002 ... 80533.html

[J.c. Sherman]

As much as I love sousaphones: they are even more impractical in storing and transportation than are tubas.

So when the Sousa band reportedly marched VERY rarely compared to its packed concert schedule, why then at all use sousaphones over tubas? Of course raincatchers can have their bells set more vertical than most tubist want for their tuba bells during actual playing, but are these relatively few degrees worth the effort?

Klaus

Since the thought/research police are out in force, I will qualify the following:

It is my belief and memory from research conducted quite some time ago (before the "interwebz" that the original concept of the sousaphone was what was viewed as a practical way to manage a very large (5/4 or 6/4 by today's reckoning) tuba. There we're certainly large helicons and non-American "Kaiser Tubas", but this instrument offered sitting and standing flexibility as well as great size without a directional timbre pointed at Sousa or his audience. Pepper answered that and Conn continued with the design (then claimed it was theirs - clever marketing ; ).

They are manageable by a soloist coming forward, on the rare march, and the instruments did come apart for travel and storage. Many benefits, but we've learned in the long run that they are better for show with a forward bell, and better for sound wrapped like a tuba ; )

Awaiting crucifixion.

J.c.S.

[Dan Schultz]

I can't help but wonder... IF Sousa had it right... how come 'raincatchers' fell from favor so quickly? That upright bell was certainly more simple to manufacture than modern-day forward-facing bells.

Disagree if you want but I think the conventional bell-forward sousaphone is the most practical tuba ever designed. If Sousa was so wrong.... how come they call it a 'sousaphone'?

Maybe we need to come up with a new name for the horn! A good job for the marketing department.

[Donn]

and the instruments did come apart for travel and storage. Many benefits, but we've learned in the long run that they are better for show with a forward bell, and better for sound wrapped like a tuba

And they come apart for travel and storage better than a helicon.

I have wondered if a helicon couldn't sound every bit as good as the best tuba - if it could be equipped with a leadpipe that has been as carefully built and tapered as you would find on that tuba. Instead, even on the European helicons you just get what looks pretty much like a straight pipe, and on American helicons the same kinky bits as a sousaphone. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that the wrap, per se, would be so much of a factor - i.e., that the acoustically ideal wrap is a series of straight sections alternating with small radius bends, and substituting large radius bends for this pattern would ruin everything - though it does seem likely that the modern sousaphone's bell cramp and extravagantly large flare could come at some cost to its acoustical possibilities.

[sloan]

I can't help but wonder... IF Sousa had it right... how come 'raincatchers' fell from favor so quickly?

Because Sousa gave concerts - and everyone else marches.

[Dan Schultz]

I can't help but wonder... IF Sousa had it right... how come 'raincatchers' fell from favor so quickly?

Because Sousa gave concerts - and everyone else marches.

Marching isn't the issue. I haven't seen many pictures of other stage bands of the day using 'raincatchers'. The tuba of choice, even in dance bands, appears to the the sousaphone. I just think there should be a push to change the name since Sousa didn't care for them!

Did Sousa always perform on stage? ... or were the tubas playing outside for the birds?

Not trying to be argumentive here. ... just wonderin'... thinking maybe our resident sousaphone expert might have the answers.

[Donn]

I can't help but wonder... IF Sousa had it right... how come 'raincatchers' fell from favor so quickly?

Because Sousa gave concerts - and everyone else marches.

Well, bearing in mind that we ought to be comparing 5 different tuba designs

• common tuba
• bell front tuba
• helicon, original point of departure for the sousaphone
• raincatcher
• modern sousaphone

Klaus wonders how the few degrees of difference between a common tuba and a raincatcher could possibly be worth the trouble. Evidently, it wasn't.

Dan wonders what advantage the raincatcher could possibly have had over the modern sousaphone. As you observe, for Sousa this would be in the context of a stationary band, and for everyone else ... that would be a silly question, since no one else appears to have had much use for them. (Don't worry folks, I didn't go to the webz for that - I just made it up!)

I say the real winner is (drum roll please ...) the bell front tuba, the ideal bell angle for good coverage and projection combined with reasonably good sound. I am sure I read somewhere that at one point Sousa himself was actually pushing for a similar angle, but that was pre-webz and I don't recall where I read it.

[iiipopes]

I used a "modern" neck with two bits on a 38K I played for awhile some years ago. After trying both, it was readily apparent why the "modern" neck with two bits is preferred. No difference to me in intonation or tone, but an absolute improvement on comfort, proper posture and playing position, and convenience.

[ken k]

and the instruments did come apart for travel and storage. Many benefits, but we've learned in the long run that they are better for show with a forward bell, and better for sound wrapped like a tuba

And they come apart for travel and storage better than a helicon.

I have wondered if a helicon couldn't sound every bit as good as the best tuba - if it could be equipped with a leadpipe that has been as carefully built and tapered as you would find on that tuba. Instead, even on the European helicons you just get what looks pretty much like a straight pipe, and on American helicons the same kinky bits as a sousaphone. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that the wrap, per se, would be so much of a factor - i.e., that the acoustically ideal wrap is a series of straight sections alternating with small radius bends, and substituting large radius bends for this pattern would ruin everything - though it does seem likely that the modern sousaphone's bell cramp and extravagantly large flare could come at some cost to its acoustical possibilities.

I have a 1919 pan american helicon which I believe to have been made by Conn. It is a very large horn and quite honestly is one of the best tubas I have ever played of any shape or size. It has a wonderful solid sound with an 18"bell that points diagonally out to left not much unlike a concert tuba. Not sure why there would have ever been much not to like about this instrument, except for its size and difficulty to store and transport. A concert tuba is much more compact.
ken k

[eupher61]

Believe it or not, Kiltie has it right in this topic. Don't argue Souzies with a certifi(-ed) (-able) Souzie geek.