Besson Front Action Compensating F Tuba

[Uncle Buck]

Building a compensating F tuba is like trying to extinguish a fire with napalm.

Why does a compensating system work for an EEb tuba, or a BBb Euph, but not for an F tuba?

[windshieldbug]

Why does a compensating system work for an EEb tuba, or a BBb Euph, but not for an F tuba?

Because they're always overcompensating, driving red Corvettes, wearing sleeveless shirts, smoking Camels, etc.

[Chuck(G)]

Didn't Boosey & Hawkes build a compensating F-Tuba with three top-action pistons and one side action piston for Gerard Hoffnung? I have this notion that so was the case - I could be wrong, however...

I don't thnk it was specifically for Hoffnung, but they did produce a very small F and a CC in 3+1 (and 3+0) compensating style in the 60's. Arnold Jacobs did his recording of the VW concerto using one of the Fs. IIRC, the intonation on the F wasn't remarkable. The CC's were pretty decent.

[iiipopes]

The problem with building a comp F is that it is too easy to be lazy and use and Eb block & bugle, which, of course, has the comp loops too long to intonate properly, and the wrong taper to the bell, which also causes intonation problems. To build one properly requires a complete reengineering of the calculations for the comp loops and taper, among other things. And if you use valves that are too small in diameter so the 2nd valve comp loop is not crimped, then you lose low register, and if you use valves large enough to give a solid low register, you may crimp the 2d comp loop and cause stuffiness. Besson 3-valve comp baritone players have for years accepted 23 as being slightly flat so the 2nd valve comp loop would not cause stuffiness.

[KarlMarx]

What does it matter whether this instrument is playable? I was under the impression that F tubas are simply the toys of the idle rich...??

Like TN plantation owners with real islands in their pools?

[Bob Kolada]

Oh Klaus...

[imperialbari]

Besson Sovereign F Tuba. 19%22 (480mm) bell, full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750%22 (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790%22 (20mm).jpg

Demonstration/prototype Besson Sovereign 985 F Tuba. 19" (480mm) bell, 4/4 size. Full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750" (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790" (20mm)

Which places it close to the dimensions of the Besson 995 CC tuba. Definitely not based on parts from any Besson Eb tuba.

[Jess Haney]

A PERFECT example of why it is NOT a "shame" that Besson (if it hasn't yet) will disappear forever.

Well, as a happy owner of a 983 Eb, I am not happy about Besson's financial state.

I am looking for some of those rubber spring sound dampers, if anyone has a lead on where to get them.

Thanks!

Willson has a set that you gan get through deg. They fit on the bottom valve caps. I dont know if thats what your looking for but its an idea.

[Jess Haney]

I came across this front action compensating Besson F for sale in the U.K. Looks like a modified 983 valveset and tubing on a 981 body and bell. Perhaps a prototype? Has anyone had the opportunity to play on it? Any observations? Thanks!
Rich

http://www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/images/Ph ... is%20d.jpg" target="_blank

I have also seen and heard stories about this little F. I have also seen some pics of the top side F that was producted long ago and from what I have heard they are very saught after. Whether or not they are playable or just wall mounts at resturant is beyond my knowledge.

[imperialbari]

Is this still for sale?

(bump)

bloke "Folks posted in this thread who are no longer amongst us."

The specimen mentioned by the OP is no longer for sale. I had planned on buying it, but the price had too much of a mark up compared to the price asked by Besson, when they gave up on the project and sold the 10 prototypes. Unfortunately for me somebody else was willing to pay the price asked, not by Pamela’s music, but by a brass repairman in Pamela’s musical environment.

As I see it the 985 project was an attempt of getting a share of Yamaha’s market for the YFB-822. Had they made an F equivalent of the 983 Eb, they might have gotten a much better instrument that had taken significant shares of the market for the YFB-621.

Klaus

[Lectron]

Maybe no-one never tried it with the proper gap....

[Lectron]

Maybe no-one never tried it with the proper gap....

The proper gap is as far as possible between you and that horn!

Well...That should sure take care of any intonation issues.

Thank you sir for your good and always professional advice
You are a true gentleman

[GC]

I'm not an F tubist, but I found the one of those I tried about a year and a half ago to be very easy to play, well in tune, and with easy low and high registers. It felt like playing a really good Eb. I'd have bought it if I'd had the cash.

[Lectron]

Demonstration/prototype Besson Sovereign 985 F Tuba. 19" (480mm) bell, 4/4 size. Full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750" (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790" (20mm)

Which places it close to the dimensions of the Besson 995 CC tuba. Definitely not based on parts from any Besson Eb tuba.

The bottom bow, throat and shall looks like from a 981

Do you think maybe the choice of a 19/20 valveset is to try keeping the taper less aggressive
toward the larger gauged tubing more than making it a 8va basso monster?

[imperialbari]

There are lots of photos of some of the ten 985 samples in my galleries. I will have to look through them again. But it never struck me that the belland bow should come from the 981/982 models.

As said I assume a hope for taking Yamaha market shares. The large bore valves might be an attempt of improving the weakest part of the 981, the notes right above the open pedal Eb.

Klaus

[Lectron]

I'll have a look in the gallery....

Would be interesting to try one out.....or an Eb with the valveset (if they ever tried that)

Just a quick photoshop with the 981 and F
Throat and bell looks different, but could be the angle

[J.c. Sherman]

<sidebar>

The guy who makes my synthetic washers also can make "spring dampers" that I could be selling. The problem is that they are a bunch of hooey. Springs are only noisy if they
- are not seated (centered) properly. (90%)
- are the wrong size. (8%)
- are bent. (2%)

Whenever I clean an instrument with these appliances in place, the bottom valve caps are extra-extra filthy. "Catching filth" seems to be the only thing that "spring dampers" seem to do really well.

...and yeah, DEG has a bunch of Willson stuff left over, surely including these.

</sidebar>

Amen, Bloke. I loath these things, and their a waste of weight and a magnet for valve grelck, IMHO. Get the right springs and it's a non issue.