First suite in Eb

[imperialbari]

This thread has strayed, so I have to ask:

Have there any valid arguments (based on Holst’s written intentions) that promote a tuba playing the upper octave line of the opening statement?

When the upper octave line is played by the euphonium(-s), the addition of a tuba to the upper line does not give added clarity. It adds to the mud. Just to counter a point of view with which I disagree.

Klaus

[eupher61]

Tiny, do it if your director wants to try it. If it works, great! If not, oh well.

I can't think of any reason it shouldn't work, unless the other players can't handle the lower octave. It is part of the original concept, after all, no matter what anyone else says. Holst wrote for what he knew, which was British tradition including woodwinds and brass bands.

[derrenba]

CLDMusic was given more criticism than advice

and if you look in a mirror, you'll see the only person dishing out criticism.

[tbn.al]

This thread has strayed, so I have to ask:

Have there any valid arguments (based on Holst’s written intentions) that promote a tuba playing the upper octave line of the opening statement?

When the upper octave line is played by the euphonium(-s), the addition of a tuba to the upper line does not give added clarity. It adds to the mud. Just to counter a point of view with which I disagree.

Klaus

Check this out http://www.windrep.org/Articles:First_Suite" target="_blank" target="_blank Scrll down and you can see it in Holst's on writing. The Euph is doubling an octave up and the only double in the Bombard line is the low G.

[imperialbari]

I have read through all of the manuscript excerpts and didn’t find the opening passage. The negative result may be my error, so please provide the address for the given .jpg presentation.

Klaus

[sousaphone68]

This thread has strayed, so I have to ask:

Have there any valid arguments (based on Holst’s written intentions) that promote a tuba playing the upper octave line of the opening statement?

When the upper octave line is played by the euphonium(-s), the addition of a tuba to the upper line does not give added clarity. It adds to the mud. Just to counter a point of view with which I disagree.

Klaus

Check this out http://www.windrep.org/Articles:First_Suite" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank Scrll down and you can see it in Holst's on writing. The Euph is doubling an octave up and the only double in the Bombard line is the low G.

Excellent link can't wait to get home and read it thank you for posting.

[kingrob76]

Geez.


Everyone KNOWS the top line is supposed to be played on a Cimbasso.

Stop messing around with this kid - he didn't know any better.

[ralphbsz]

It's really odd that I just found this thread, since the very same piece is giving my son a little bit of trouble right now.

Middle school (a.k.a. junior high), mostly 8th grade students, my kid is 1st chair tuba and section leader of low brass. They have practiced the Holst Eb suite for about 6 weeks now. Two weeks ago, they played it in the spring concert, and this Saturday, they're taking it to our local band competition (here it's called the CMEA large ensemble festival). In the spring concert, they did pretty well (although a middle school band does not sound like the US Marine Band or the Cleveland Winds, which is the recordings I have put on his iPod).

The problem is the entrance of the first movement, which is an 8-bar bar solo by the tubas and "euphoniums", a slow line in octaves. The problem is that the low brass section is a mixed bag. My son leads, on his Meinl 25 (a full-size 4-rotary BBb). His tuba sidekick is a really nice 7th grader, who plays the school-owned Yamaha 321 (4-piston full-size BBb). The second chair kid has a really nice round tone, good dynamic control, and very good intonation, except he has the habit of flubbing the fingerings when nervous. So quite a few of the notes have kinks at the beginning when he tries to figure out the correct fingering. The second chair kid is not very large, and doesn't have the lung capacity for the really long notes, but the two guys have worked out a routine of alternate breathing.The problem with the two tubas is that they sound so different: The MW25 is round and smooth and has a big tone, and the Yamaha is loud and brassy. So they don't blend well. That's particularly noticeable in the intro. On the other hand, when it gets loud, the two of them together give the band a good strong foundation (blending or not). And the 8th-note solo "pesante" about 40 bars into the first movement works well, both of them can easily handle that.

The problem are the baritones/euphoniums. The first chair is pretty good, and plays a 3-valve Yamaha student euphonium that is in good shape. Her intonation is not perfect. The second chair is less good, but he has to play along (not for musical but for educational reasons), and he's on a mostly wrecked Olds "Ambassador" baritone that sound as bad as it looks (it's completely beat up). The fact that the tone of the two different instruments doesn't blend is the least of the problems.

By the way, the second chair tuba player is also the school's finest euphonium player, and has a nice Jupiter 4-valve at home (his older brother's). But he is needed more for the tuba section, and hasn't practiced the euphonium in a year.

So who is going to play that intro solo? Ideal would be to do just half sections: My son on the tuba, and the first chair euphonium. Not going to work, the second euphonium player will have to play (or else there will be an ugly scene in the principal's office). Or maybe just my son by himself, skipping the euphonium part completely. That would sound a little dull without the octave above, but at least there will be no wrong notes and it will have dynamics and legato. All other options are unrealistic: have the second chair tubist double on his nice euphonium, and then quickly switch instruments (no, students can't switch instruments so fast, and having a parent back there would be dumb). Or maybe have the best trombone player do the euphonium line instead (the judge at the competition would have a fit, and a euphonium doesn't sound like a trombone). Or maybe have the 2nd tuba player do the bass part, and my son plays the euphonium part on his big tuba (it only goes only to the c at the top of the staff, and he can play that pp on his big tuba pretending to be a euphonium). None of this works. So it's just going to be the four of them, wrong notes and bad intonation and screwy dynamics. That's the breaks in a school band.

[MartyNeilan]

Ralph,
It sounds like your son's middle school band is way ahead of the game. Most middle schools wouldn't even thinking of tackling Holst (unless an extremely watered down "arrangement")
Don't sweat the small stuff, let them play and do their thing, and have fun!
Many high school, community, and church groups have exactly the same issues.