I got a good lesson on valve oil recently. When I bought my somewhat beat-up but nice-playing Sterling euph on ebay, it came with a mostly empty Alisyn oil bottle. I used it, and damn those valves were the best working I have ever encountered! I only needed to oil them occasionally, as opposed to my prior experiences with Al Cass and Blue Juice (not on the Sterling.)
So I have told people far and wide about how incredibly wonderful Alisyn is.
Then a couple weeks ago I borrowed someone's alto horn, and since the valves were working less than ideally, I cleaned them up and then put in the magic Alisyn. (Alto's owner uses Hetman.)
Nothin'. First valve would stick all the way down and not come up, they all felt like they had a little bit of grit in them, and, eh, I learned this: that euph has fantastic valves, and the alto (an old Yamaha) has horrible valves.
So much for that, although I will continue to use the Alisyn on the euph just based on why fix it if it ain't broke.
valve oil
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jrobba
- bugler
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:22 pm
- Location: Lacey, WA
Re: valve oil
Has anybody ever had a problem with Hetmans lubricants separating into a white sludge when mixed? When I use their slide oil and I add a little valve oil to it later in the week I notice a white sludge buildup on the slides.
Jason Robba
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bort
- 6 valves
- Posts: 11223
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: valve oil
Anther reason I like rotary tubas -- I've never had a valve stick. Need to keep the linkage oiled and quiet, but never had a valve stick.
Long ago on a sousaphone with sticky valves, I used Binak 495. It was excellent on that tuba. Is that still around? Does anyone use it?
Long ago on a sousaphone with sticky valves, I used Binak 495. It was excellent on that tuba. Is that still around? Does anyone use it?
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Lee Stofer
- 4 valves
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:50 am
Re: valve oil
Yes, to expand just a little on the facts that Bloke put out;
- Yamaha, Kanstul, and a couple of European makers have rather tight tolerances on their valves. If they are clean, they will work with very little of anything on them. If the valves get dirty on these instruments, nothing is going to make them work well until they are thoroughly, immaculately clean again. With tight tolerances, synthetic valve oils with silicones may work for a while, but are likely to get slow and gummy-feeling unless they are religiously cleaned and maintained. Traditional valve oils, which are clean kerosene which is normally scented or colored(ie., Blue Juice), will generally work fine in these instruments. Al Cass was developed for trumpet valves, not large-bore euphoniums and piston tubas. Using Al Cass in your euphonium or tuba is like taking the motor oil you would use in a Honda Civic and trying to use that in your Dodge Ram pickup with Cummins turbodiesel - you need more lubrication, and the motor (your instrument valves) will suffer if they don't get it. Hetman Synthetic lubricants are a synthetic hydrocarbon oil, but have no silicones, so they will not get gummy like silicones will. There are a very few people that have a body chemistry reaction with Hetman lubricants where that they experience a whitish build-up. For these people, the Yamaha Synthetic valve oil may be a good alternative. Some people have a build-up reaction to any kind of oil. Synthetic lubricants do the same thing in tubas that they do in automotive engines - cut friction, so that there is less wear-and-tear, making the valves last longer and work easier.
- most instruments have looser tolerances in their valves, particularly old, worn instruments, Chinese and Indian instruments, and certain British-, or British-inspired euphoniums, as well as some newer tubas made in Ohio. With instruments that have particularly loose tolerances, the valves can be rebuilt to like-new, high-grade tolerances. Or, one can use one of the valve oils that contain silicones, such as Space Filler, Alisyn, Binak, La Tromba or others. The silicones help fill, as the Space Filler name suggests, effectively making up for loose tolerances and can dramatically improve the action. But, my experience suggests that they will eventually gum-up, too, needing serious cleaning. When cleaning and instrument that has AliSyn or other synthetic oils with silicones in it, the AliSyn solvent in a spray bottle is necessary to remove all the dirt-and-silicone build-up on the pistons and in the valve casings. And, once you have the loose pistons and valve casings all cleaned-up, then you have loose valves again, and can start in with the synthetic with silicones again, going through the whole process again.
The bottom line is that you have to clean your instrument. And, the better you know your instrument, the easier it will be to maintain it.
- Yamaha, Kanstul, and a couple of European makers have rather tight tolerances on their valves. If they are clean, they will work with very little of anything on them. If the valves get dirty on these instruments, nothing is going to make them work well until they are thoroughly, immaculately clean again. With tight tolerances, synthetic valve oils with silicones may work for a while, but are likely to get slow and gummy-feeling unless they are religiously cleaned and maintained. Traditional valve oils, which are clean kerosene which is normally scented or colored(ie., Blue Juice), will generally work fine in these instruments. Al Cass was developed for trumpet valves, not large-bore euphoniums and piston tubas. Using Al Cass in your euphonium or tuba is like taking the motor oil you would use in a Honda Civic and trying to use that in your Dodge Ram pickup with Cummins turbodiesel - you need more lubrication, and the motor (your instrument valves) will suffer if they don't get it. Hetman Synthetic lubricants are a synthetic hydrocarbon oil, but have no silicones, so they will not get gummy like silicones will. There are a very few people that have a body chemistry reaction with Hetman lubricants where that they experience a whitish build-up. For these people, the Yamaha Synthetic valve oil may be a good alternative. Some people have a build-up reaction to any kind of oil. Synthetic lubricants do the same thing in tubas that they do in automotive engines - cut friction, so that there is less wear-and-tear, making the valves last longer and work easier.
- most instruments have looser tolerances in their valves, particularly old, worn instruments, Chinese and Indian instruments, and certain British-, or British-inspired euphoniums, as well as some newer tubas made in Ohio. With instruments that have particularly loose tolerances, the valves can be rebuilt to like-new, high-grade tolerances. Or, one can use one of the valve oils that contain silicones, such as Space Filler, Alisyn, Binak, La Tromba or others. The silicones help fill, as the Space Filler name suggests, effectively making up for loose tolerances and can dramatically improve the action. But, my experience suggests that they will eventually gum-up, too, needing serious cleaning. When cleaning and instrument that has AliSyn or other synthetic oils with silicones in it, the AliSyn solvent in a spray bottle is necessary to remove all the dirt-and-silicone build-up on the pistons and in the valve casings. And, once you have the loose pistons and valve casings all cleaned-up, then you have loose valves again, and can start in with the synthetic with silicones again, going through the whole process again.
The bottom line is that you have to clean your instrument. And, the better you know your instrument, the easier it will be to maintain it.
Lee A. Stofer, Jr.