Adams Euphonium

[EuphJacoborr]

I was looking at the Adams Euphonium and I was wondering about some of the options.

1. How does red brass, Gold brass, regular brass, and sterling silver affect the sound?
2. How does the thickness of the body of the horn affect the sound?
3. How does heaver valve caps affect the sound?
4. Does the bell size matter?
5. How does the custom receiver affect the sound?
6. How does Tuning Trigger affect the sound?

[NCSUSousa]

Answers 1,2 &3: I'll go with Placebo effect. Some think it's real science. See forum viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56709

Answer 4: Of course it matters. Mine's bigger than yours. I play Tuba.
Or maybe not... Mine isn't as big as a sousaphone bell.

Answer 5: You can buy your new instrument with a receiver that fits your preferred mouthpiece so that it fits better. Or you can buy a new mouthpiece and select the correct mouthpiece shank size to match your new instrument.

Answer 6: You can use a tuning trigger to make fine tuning adjustments to the main tuning slide with your left hand without removing your left hand from the normal playing position.


In all honesty, if you didn't know this already then you shouldn't be looking at an Adams at all.

[Rick F]

There's quite a lot of information on Adams euphonium over on Dave Werden's forum. Here are a few links to start with:


Adams Silver bell option:
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... ehC4su9KSM

Review by a new Adams performing artist:
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... post118604

Review (with some pictures) by Dave Werden: (6 pages worth)
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... ehGBsu9KSM

Adjustable gap receiver (AGR):
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.php/ ... Receiver#.

Sent from iPad

[TheHatTuba]

In all fairness to the OP, options, such as material and mass, are rarely available to tuba/euphonium players. Generally though:

1. Standard yellow brass projects more than the other options, but the others can change the sound color. Yellow v. gold brass seems to be a topic when discussing Miraphones, so may try searching for some of those posts.

2. Metal thickness can affect response, and some think it makes for a darker/lighter sound, more/less projection, etc. Imho, response is the only characteristic affected. Older horns with thinner, hand hammered bows (1960's Mirafone CC's, GDR era B&S F's, etc.) do play remarkably different from their thicker, modern counterparts, though, this is probably more of a result of the hand hammering than the metal thickness.

3. See above.

4. Generally, wider diameters=more "woof" and thinner diameters=more "focus". Though, imho, the "new" MW Thors play the same, even with the slightly wider bell diameter, so who knows.

5. Search "AGR" in the forum. Lots of results and lots opinions...

6. It doesn't, other than your embouchure will not be "compromised" to bend a pitch down that is massively out of tune. The device itself, though, will not affect the horn's sound.

Finally, go try them out. Dropping $6k+ on a horn without testing it is definitely a gamble. Don't be left thinking, "man, I should've ordered it with [blank] instead of [blank]"!

[pgym]

In all fairness to the OP, options, such as material and mass, are rarely available to tuba/euphonium players. Generally though:

1. Standard yellow brass projects more than the other options, but the others can change the sound color. Yellow v. gold brass seems to be a topic when discussing Miraphones, so may try searching for some of those posts.

2. Metal thickness can affect response, and some think it makes for a darker/lighter sound, more/less projection, etc. Imho, response is the only characteristic affected. Older horns with thinner, hand hammered bows (1960's Mirafone CC's, GDR era B&S F's, etc.) do play remarkably different from their thicker, modern counterparts, though, this is probably more of a result of the hand hammering than the metal thickness.

3. See above.

All the perceived differences could be due to confirmation bias.

6. It doesn't, other than your embouchure will not be "compromised" to bend a pitch down that is massively out of tune. The device itself, though, will not affect the horn's sound.

Miel Adams is pretty adamant that extraneous weight and bracing dampens a horn's resonance, which does affect the sound. (Adams euphs--and other brasswinds--have minimal bracing, extremely thin bow guards (same thickness of the body of the horn), and don't have a 4th valve lock.) Triggers add both bracing and weight, so while Adams does offer them as an option, they do try to discourage customers from adding them.

[TheHatTuba]

All the perceived differences could be due to confirmation bias.

Yup.

Miel Adams is pretty adamant that extraneous weight and bracing dampens a horn's resonance, which does affect the sound. . . so while Adams does offer them as an option, they do try to discourage customers from adding them.

Not sure I can agree with that, but hey, that's why there are so many options. Tuning triggers may also scare off buyers, as they might imply that the horn desperately needs it to play in-tune.

[DaTweeka]

I was looking at the Adams Euphonium and I was wondering about some of the options.

1. How does red brass, Gold brass, regular brass, and sterling silver affect the sound?
2. How does the thickness of the body of the horn affect the sound?
3. How does heaver valve caps affect the sound?
4. Does the bell size matter?
5. How does the custom receiver affect the sound?
6. How does Tuning Trigger affect the sound?

Mr. Werden of the Dwerden forums plays on an Adams Custom, and he, along with a few others on the board, feel that it's the best horn on the planet. In response to your questions, I have the following;

1. Yellow, Gold, and Red brass all have different copper contents to them. While some believe that this has no bearing on the sound, I can attest from sitting down and playing a handful of the Custom models that it does make a difference, if only with these horns. If you want a more staid sound, go for the yellow. If you want something smooth and easy to project, go for the gold. If you want even more projection and a certain zingy quality to the sound, go for the red. However, the real dark horse here is the SS model. It's considerably denser than the other metals, and puts out a much denser, more complex overtone structure. Most Adams customers who have the scratch spring for the SS model.

2. The metal thickness deals with response and dynamic limits. The thicker the material, the more you can push the dynamics, but the more heavy the tone and more difficult to steer. Lighter thicknesses yield an airier tone (though not beyond redemption) and respond much more quickly. Most pros tend towards the middle ground options of .55 and .60 thickness.

3. I can't speak to the valve caps.

4. Absolutely bell size matters! Why do you think there would be Besson 2052 and 2051 models? The only difference between the 2 horns is bell size, and yet Steven Mead only plays on the 2051.

5. The Custom receiver has more to do with note slotting than anything. The further in you go, the easier it is to lock in high notes, and the opposite is true for a further gap. It's a fun toy, but it's yet another personal adjustment to make with the horn.

6. The Custom is already a very light horn. The trigger brings the weight back to around 9 lbs., the stomping grounds of any other untriggered horn. It doesn't seem to affect the playing, and given the intonation tendencies of the horn, it doesn't need it. While it may imply intonation woes, this horn has the best tendencies on the market ( http://www.dwerden.com/Intonation/index.cfm" target="_blank ). It's really just an optional expense, and almost useless.

While the differences in bell material may seem to be a placebo effect, it seems that with such a light and responsive horn as the Adams, any little thing will change the sound. I think that bell material might have some relevancy here, and I encourage you to compare as many models as you can. They are truly fantastic horns no matter which model you choose to buy.

[MSchott]

I've followed the Adams conversations on Dave's website and had the chance to play a pretty basic, thin metal Adams. That horn was on the inexpensive side for the brand and lacked focus in the upper range. It was extremely light, especially compared to my Willson 2900S which is one of the heavier euphs on the market. The response and intonation of the Adams was as good as on any horn I've tried and the low range spoke nicely. The owner of the dealer who is a very fine tuba player told me the horns with the sterling bell and heavier gauge slot better in the high range. I would like to try one to confirm but nearly every review of the Adams Custom by it's owners (of course they are predisposed) is extremely favorable.

[pgym]

1. Yellow, Gold, and Red brass all have different copper contents to them. While some believe that this has no bearing on the sound, I can attest from sitting down and playing a handful of the Custom models that it does make a difference, if only with these horns. If you want a more staid sound, go for the yellow. If you want something smooth and easy to project, go for the gold. If you want even more projection and a certain zingy quality to the sound, go for the red. However, the real dark horse here is the SS model. It's considerably denser than the other metals, and puts out a much denser, more complex overtone structure. Most Adams customers who have the scratch spring for the SS model.

It is at least as probable that the perceived differences were due to confirmation bias as they were to the minute differences in the composition of the various brass alloys.

2. The metal thickness deals with response and dynamic limits. The thicker the material, the more you can push the dynamics, but the more heavy the tone and more difficult to steer. Lighter thicknesses yield an airier tone (though not beyond redemption) and respond much more quickly.

And the empirical evidence supporting this claim can be found ...?

4. Absolutely bell size matters! Why do you think there would be Besson 2052 and 2051 models? The only difference between the 2 horns is bell size, and yet Steven Mead only plays on the 2051.

Really? There's no difference in bell weight, thickness, profile, taper, length, or radius of curvature of the flare? Is Mr. Mead's preference based on a demonstrated the ability to distinguish between 2051s and 2052s in double-blind testing of multiple instruments or a matter of confirmation bias?

[JTJ]

Doesn't Steve Mead play a 2052, not a 2051?

Felix is splitting hairs. Almost none of this discussion is measurably objective, but subjective feel does affect a players confidence and quality of performance.

As an Adams amateur, with 6 months playing a sterling silver Adams, I can say the sterling silver bell is the sweet spot standout in the line. And I have played them all.

Finally, we need to hear from Matt Tropman, Dave Werden and Martin Cochran, Adams artists all.

[dwerden]

OK, let me try to answer from the top. But first, a little background. I play Adams now, played a Sterling for about 20 years before that, and played a Besson for about 20 years before that. I don't jump from horn-to-horn without good reason and careful comparisons. My primary goal in choosing a horn is getting a rich, singing sound. If you don't like a horn's sound but like everything else, it can be tough to change the sound. I stayed with Besson for so long (during the dreaded mile-high-6th-partial years) because I like its sound better than anything else, even though (as I acknowledged at the time) other horns had better response and intonation. I changed to Sterling because it had the character of sound I wanted and offered a little better response and intonation (both of which got even better over the years). I changed to Adams because it had even better sound, the best intonation of any horn I've tried, and the best response of any horn I had tried.

I was very used to having a trigger on my Sterling and liked the relaxed way I could play by using it. The Adams' intonation is good enough that I chose to not buy the trigger option. (Which I thought to be a good thing, because trigger adds weight and vulnerability to damage.) I started with a .55 horn with a SS bell. Then later I moved to a .60 horn with a SS bell. That is what I use today.

Now to specifics:

1. How does red brass, Gold brass, regular brass, and sterling silver affect the sound?
Personal taste enters in here, even in the way we describe the differences. If I were going to advise on the safest choice, I'd say go with the sterling silver bell. But I also like the red brass a lot myself. To me, the red gives a more lively sound compared to yellow (and SS for that matter).

2. How does the thickness of the body of the horn affect the sound?
I did not hear it as affecting the sound so much as it affects the volume ability of the instrument and the response. The lighter horn responds more easily but can't project quite as well. The heavier horn does not have quite as quick a response but projects better. The heavier metal can handle your playing better if you tend to use a lot of air/power. If you are by nature a lighter player, you might enjoy the lighter metal's feel.

3. How does heaver valve caps affect the sound?
I can't swear that I can tell a difference. I use the standard caps on 1-2-3 and a heavy cap on 4. Sometimes I think the heavy cap makes a difference and sometimes I don't.

4. Does the bell size matter?
Yes it does, as far as I can tell. Generally a larger bell gives you a larger sound, but has less focus. And vice versa. I came to this conclusion during my Sterling Virtuoso years, when I had ample chance to try identical (as much as they can be) horns but with different bell diameters. For large ensemble playing a large bell is nice. For chamber playing and recitals it might get in your way a bit.

5. How does the custom receiver affect the sound?
Subtly. It makes a difference to my ears, but it's hard to describe it, and it is small. The much more significant factor is the way it affects the response and slotting. See the article linked above in Rick's post for more insight.

6. How does Tuning Trigger affect the sound?
Probably a subtle difference in sound. As stated already, Adams prefers horns with less bracing so they are freer to vibrate. That theory seems to work. Certainly it has been generally found/believed over many hears that reducing bracing helps with response. At the very least it has an effect of some kind. Having a trigger means extra bracing, which should mean less vibration. Matt van Emmerick believes as I do, that the horn does not really need a trigger for intonation. But he likes it to be able to perform certain effects and for muted passages. In my case, there are times when I'd like one now and then, but it's not too tough to do without it. And my Sterling suffered damage to the trigger on a plane flight to ITEC 2010 that would not have been troublesome on a non-triggered horn, so you have a little risk involved. There is also a little extra maintenance. My advice is to try the horn. If the dealer has only a triggered model, see if you can play it easily without the trigger. I confess I'm kind of a wimp about lipping notes (on my Besson I used alternate fingerings instead), so if I can get by without a trigger, then most players probably can. That's especially true when I say it at this point in my life, when my practice schedule is hardly worth calling a schedule and my chops are not in the shape they were when I was playing for a living.

As said above, a .55 or .60 is a good place to be. I spent a great deal of time in Europe last year playing all the possibilities. The .50 was really fun, but a touch to light for my overall use. (Actually, one of the sweetest Adams I played in Austria last year was a .50 with red brass bell. Lovely horn, but maybe not the best choice for playing in a large band.) The .70 and .80 had impressive dark sounds, but seemed to heavy in feel and sound to me. Most pros use the .55 and .60 with SS bell. Matt Tropman uses a .50 with SS and a couple other really fine players I know prefer the heavier metal.

With all those options, it would be great to try them all, but that's darned hard in the USA (actually, it's impossible as far as I know). If you have some extra money, you could have fun and make a trip to the factory. Get a cheap flight to Amsterdam, train to Adams, and they will put you up in a hotel for the night. It would add 15-20% or so to the overall cost, but you'd really be able to get picky! (I should have warned you that I love to spend other people's money )

[sungfw]

Mr. Jones,

If I have something to say or to contribute to a forum, I say it under my own name.

I resent your accusation and request you withdraw it.

Felix.

[Eflatdoubler]

I have an Adams euphonium, and for me it is the best projecting horn, and it is very easy for me to get the sound I want. The thickness, and bell material does affect the sound. These are all handmade instruments and the workmanship is impeccable. I tried out 4 of them at TMEA two years ago, and 6 this year ( I bought mine two years ago). Frankly, I did not want to know what materials/thickness I was playing so that I would not be biased. I usually like yellow bells, and lighter weight materials. The horn I walked away turned out to be .6mm thick with a gold brass bell and a red brass main tuning slide and the horn is silver plated. I have tried the heavier caps, but they weren't for me.
When I tried the batch of six horns at TMEA the following year I played them all and then after I chose the one I liked I looked at the receiver which shows the thickness. I gravitated towards the .6mm again, but that could have just been coincidence.
There was a variety of bell materials, including the sterling silver, but I just found myself happier with the Adams I got.
It is quite amazing how different in weight the horns can be, especially when picking up a .5mm or a .8mm- it becomes very noticeable.
When I play trombone (my primary)- I rarely even look at a gold brass bell. While I like the sound of them, I find the color palette is not as wide compared to yellow brass. Needless to say I was quite surprised by my euphonium choice.
It would be great to try a few of the same instrument, but that wasn't an option. My horn before this was a Yamaha 842 silver euphonium which was a terrific instrument. I had tried three of them, and they were all very different- (Yamaha instruments to me are usually some of the most consistent horns around, so this too was surprising).
Miele is extremely knowledgable and will offer you an honest ear. The pitch is amazing on these instruments, which along with sound quality is paramount in choosing a horn for me.

[pgym]

Almost none of this discussion is measurably objective

Dude, are you fo realz?

Richard Smith, The Effect of Material in Brass Instruments: a Review, Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, 1986

Richard Smith, Getting Technical: Is Brass Immaterial, Brass Herald, 2009

Robert Pyle, The Effect of Wall Materials on the Timbre of Brass Instruments, Journal of the Acoustical Society of America 103, 2834 (1998)]

Robert Pyle, Acoustical Brass-instrument Tone Quality: Is it the Player or the Instrument?, 2nd Pan-American/Iberian Meeting on Acoustics, 2010

James Whitehouse and David Sharp, A psychoacoustical investigation into the effect of wall material on the sound produced by lip-reed instruments

Richard Smith, Material vibration and its influence on performance of wind instruments, Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics, April 1981.

Richard Smith, Myth‐busting brass instrument design, J. Acoust. Soc. Am. Volume 121, 2007

Robert Pyle, Does a brass‐instrument’s timbre depend on the alloy from which it is made?, J Acoust Soc Am 125, 2009

Or any of the several hundred peer-reviewed other articles and papers on acoustics and brass instrument materials published in the last 25 years.

But, hey, why bring facts into the discussion, right?

[mceuph]

All of these horns are handmade to a large extent, so the player can expect some variation within the same model. Whatever brand or model you choose, it's always best to play test several of the same model if possible. Unfortunately, this may be easier said than done with Adams, as their euphoniums are currently in high demand and are backordered. I can say with absolute confidence that Adams instruments are very well manufactured and the company is very easy to work with, and that Miel Adams is very passionate about putting out a top quality product. On a related note, I ordered my horn with a trigger and later removed it as I did not feel that the intonation quirks really demanded it.