How to un-stink an old instrument?

[MaryAnn]

I have a rare and ancient high F single horn that I am trying to get un-stunk. It has that "old case smell" and the case has been discarded, but I can't seem to get the stink out of the horn. It has been ultrasound cleaned, chem cleaned, and soaked in concentrated H2O2 for a couple hours. It still stinks at both ends. It stinks less, but it still stinks. So you guys who work on old brass instruments, HOW do you get the STINK OUT?

[bigbob]

Is it raw brass?? if it is that's the smell of brass... live with it<s> I personally really like the smell of raw brass...I guess because I work with it every day<s>...good luck.......BB

[jeopardymaster]

Wow - I'll be following this string. Once I salvaged a horn that had been stored with onions, and even that didn't hold up to a good chem clean. Sounds like you could be dealing with some seriously stubborn mildew.

[joh_tuba]

I'd chemically clean it very thoroughly again and then before it is put back together find a room in a home with central air floor vents. Place the horn bell down over the vent so that air is forced through it. I'd leave it like that for a week or so until the smell is really truly gone. Fresh air is a remarkably good disinfectant and deodorizer. Keeping the internals of the horn dry and aired out for a period of time might be your best bet to 'nip it in the bud' and kill whatever might still be stubbornly trying to grow.

If everything you've done was TRULY done I'm a bit shocked the smell is still there... most likely there is still residual stubborn gunk from 30+ years of neglect that can only be removed by repeated cleanings and airing outs over a period of years. Repeat the process I outlined every six months until you are finally satisfied.

[MaryAnn]

a) it is not raw brass smell. It is STINK.
b) the guy who did the chem clean was not given the instruction I provided, which was to get rid of the smell. I talked to him and he said that he would do it over for no charge if it still smelled, which it does.

So I guess I'll take it back to him. I'm allergic to whatever is creating the smell and can't play the horn. I don't think airing out will do the trick, since it's not the odor itself but whatever is emitting the odor that is the problem.

Still would like to hear from guys who restore ancient instruments.

[Roger Lewis]

I would recommend that you give Mark Metzler a call. You can reach him through his website: metzlerbrass.com. His specialty is restoring older instruments and he might have some pointers for you.

All the best to you young lady.

Roger

[MaryAnn]

Thanks, Roger, I sent him an email.

All the best to you too....
MA

[ScottM]

You might check for a firm that specializes in restoration of homes after fires to see if they have an ozone room where they treat items after a fire. The ozone should neutralize any smells and shouldn't hurt the horn. It might degrade the felts and corks ( not sure about that) but if it gets rid of the stench that might be an acceptable trade off. It will kill of any mildew or other organisms that survived the chem cleaning. If they don't have a room, they might be able to rent you an ozone machine. You would then put the horn in a small room and let the machine run to do its job. Just don't do it in a room where you are as the ozone is toxic to breath. It won't leave a residue though so that is why it would be safe to use if done properly.
Good luck!!
Scott M

[joh_tuba]

Not to beat a dead horse... BUT, fresh air and sunshine is a natural way to 'ozone' your horn. It can take a long while but does eventually work.

I understand your frustration but anyone in the repair field for any length of time has dealt with instruments stored in a moldy basement for a decade. Everyone wants grandpa's old clarinet with every rod rusted in place restored. This isn't secret knowledge that only 'antique restoration experts' know. It's difficult to guess what your repair guy was thinking but giving him/her a second chance to make it right is excellent.

There are chemicals and sprays that can kill molds and bacteria and they can be useful BUT they have a nasty habit of replacing the 'funk' with an even more offensive chemical poison smell. It's telling that nobody has piped up with a magical chemical that they think you should use. The best long term solution remains LOTS of fresh air and sunshine over an extended period of time. You'll ultimately be happier with the result.

The ozone room idea is a very good one. Alternatively, a room ionizer does the same thing. If you have access to one of those perhaps you can pipe the ionized air through your horn directly.

Good luck!

[royjohn]

When the horn was chem cleaned, it is possible that the valves and valve springs were taken out. That could also include all the felts. If any of this old material was not cleaned, I would see that the metal parts were cleaned and disinfected and the felt and cork parts renewed. That, and a redo of the chem clean might do it for you. I suppose it's also possible that they missed some spots somewhere. . .or even failed to clean it as they were supposed to. . .I would guess it is hard to get all of those bends under water. . .

[MaryAnn]

It's going back to the guy who chem cleaned it. I'll ask him about felts etc that could have retained an odor.

To the person who keeps saying to just air it out, I am HIGHLY allergic to mold. Any mold residue must be completely removed, not deordorized, since dead mold is just as allergenic as live mold.

[MikeS]

The best way I know to kill mold, without leaving a toxic residue that's even worse, is with hydrogen peroxide. You could try running a 3% solution through the horn and then flushing it out thoroughly. Soak the felts in the solution as well.

[MikeW]

To remove fungus and mildew, use a solution of TSP with household Chlorine bleach (about a cup of each in a gallon of warm water, with a squirt of detergent as a wetting agent, or there is a pre-mixed version sold as something like "Thirty Seconds" for cleaning mold slimes off decks and patios). Thoroughly wet the inside of the instrument with the solution, let it sit for at least a minute or so, then snake it out with a little more of the solution, followed by a thorough flush with clean water.

Rubber gloves and eye-shield are strongly recommended.

For normal de-stinking of just about anything, the following regime is widely recommended:

1. Apply a mild acid (50/50 water and vinegar is often recommended) This neutralises basic stinks like ammonia from pet urine
2. Flush with water
3. Apply a mild base (Sodium Bicarbonate solution is often recommended) This neutralises acidic stinks, including left-over vinegar from step 1
4. Flush with water
5. Apply a mild oxidising agent (3% Hydrogen peroxide is often recommended) With luck this will clean up organic stinks
6. Final rinse with water

[jeopardymaster]

I'm no mycologist, but if you're allergic to mold I'd bet mildew could get you down as well - they're both fungi, last time I checked. Not fun.

[MaryAnn]

Well, it's more complicated than that, unfortunately. For the curious about health problems caused by the toxin-releasing indoor molds and other biotoxins, the definitive knowledge web site is

http://www.survivingmold.com" target="_blank

There are a LOT of people out there with chronic illness who do not know what they have, because their doctors are not up on the role of biotoxins and diagnose them with "syndrome" diseases, which translates as "we don't know what is wrong with you."

Thanks for the info...I had not thought of TSP. if the re-chem (free) does not work, that will be my next step.

MA, living outside through necessity

[ralphbsz]

If the "sane" methods (chem-clean, TSP, H2O2) fail, I would use ozone. You can get ozone generators (for fish tanks and spas), which make ozone gas (they take air, and convert a small fraction of the oxygen into ozone). Typical output is about 1g of ozone per day, which is a huge amount (it will completely destroy several grams of organic material, and given that you're likely dealing with a thin layer, that's a lot). Then use some sort of forced air (like a fan) to blow the ozone-enriched air through the instrument (and find some way to make sure all valve branches are treated). We use it at home to treat our well water (turns dissolved iron into rust, which is filtered out), and I've occasionally used it to clean things. Powerful stuff.

Warning: It is guaranteed to destroy rubber (rather quickly) and many plastics. It will probably do a nasty job on felt, or the grease and oil in the valves and on the slides. It corrodes metals that can oxidize rather quickly (zinc, aluminum, iron). You would have to chem clean again afterwards, replace the felts, and re-oil. Ozone has nasty health effects, and some people get headaches from it, so this would have to be done outdoors and away from people.

[swillafew]

It's low tech, but had a great experience once with making a bucket of water and Herbal Essence shampoo. I poured the solution into the bell of a tuba, turned it end over end, and more 'stuff' came out the leadpipe than I had thought possible. It smelled like shampoo for a long time after that, maybe less toxic than breathing bleach, etc.

[Lee Stofer]

Mary Ann,
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles with this F-horn. From my experiences in restoring a lot of very old, very nasty and stinky instruments, I've found that multiple cleanings are oftentimes necessary to get "all of it" out of an instrument. Where there are significant buildups of residue or organisms in the instrument, these can require two or three operations to remove, and where lacquer and/or metal are significantly oxidized, subsurface oxidation will surface over a matter of a few days, requiring further work to get it really clean.

When I'm restoring an antique silver-plated instrument anymore, I actually plan to do the instrument, let it sit several days, and then fully service it again. Otherwise, the instrument will start looking hazy in just a few days.

People are most impressed with dent removal, fast valves and custom gizmos, but there is nothing I do to instruments that is more important than getting them really clean, and then stabilizing the brass so they tend to stay that way.

[bigbob]

.

, but there is nothing I do to instruments that is more important than getting them really clean, and then stabilizing the brass so they tend to stay that way.[/quote]
How do you stabilize the brass Lee??