BRITISH BRASS BANDS

[aqualung]

OK, I did get the 8ve number wrong. C1 is the bottom note on a 93-key Bösendorfer.

A notation program does not make transposition "easier" for me - just slower. But admittedly, easier to read. Many of the younger musicians nowadays have never had to read manuscript music.

[Lew]

I played EEb tuba (on a Besson 983) in a British Brass Band in Richmond, VA when I lived there. The parts were generally a lot more interesting/fun than the typical US concert band tuba parts. As a rank amateur who plays for fun and doesn't have that much time to devote to practicing or learning new tricks, I have to admit that I cheated by playing an Eb by using the "add three flats" trick. I tried the BBb parts, but my mind just couldn't make the adjustment. Yes, I'm sure that if I put a little time into it I would have been able to learn it, and it probably would be useful to be able to read trumpet parts, but it wasn't a priority.

[NCSUSousa]

OK, I did get the 8ve number wrong. C1 is the bottom note on a 93-key Bösendorfer.

You're still not getting this right...
The standard name for Middle C (~261hz) is 'C4'. The name/number system doesn't change because 1 manufacturer decided to add notes to their keyboard. A standard 88 key piano goes down to A0. (This is below C1)
The 92 key model Boesendorfer (the 225) goes down to F0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_B ... er_(piano) http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/frequent ... tions.html
The 97 key model (Imperial) goes down to C0. It takes 5 additional keys to finish the bass octave (to provide 8 full octaves) compared to their model 225.

[termite]

I was lucky - I started my tuba playing on BBb treble clef in a brass band and added concert pitch bass clef later. I could already read both clefs from playing the piano.

I'm a little slower in sharp keys in bass clef, but most bass clef music put in front of me is much easier than the treble clef stuff I see in brass band.

I don't know the actual numbers but I suspect most professional brass players in Australia would have started in brass bands, often Salvation Army bands.

Most serious tuba players around here started on either euphonium or EEb tuba.

BBb/CC etc. tuning - this hits a raw nerve with me.
If a bunch of CC players can play "in tune" together and a bunch of BBb guys can do the same but the two groups can't play together it means that they were never playing "in tune" - they were playing out of tune together.

The pitch of a note should NOT be decided by the instrument - it is determined by where it needs to go to fit into the music.

Daily drone practice please!!!!

Actually the worst intonation that I've had to attempt to block out over the last few years has been from guys playing the "correct" Besson 3+1 EEb.

Every player I've sat next to recently (except for pros) has blown the 2nd. and 3rd. partials on open, second and first flat as hell - particularly when attempting to play loudly - and played the 1st valve fifth partial VERY flat - AND they will not attempt to use alternative fingerings under any circumstances!!

I've had people argue loudly that it is incorrect to use any fingering other than what's in the beginner fingering chart!!

The notes referenced above are (in transposed treble clef) C, B, Bb just below the stave, C, B,Bb in the middle of the stave and fourth line D. The last one is a real problem because it's most often seen as the fifth in concert Bb - a very bad note to be flat on.

Anyway, I think the easiest way is to learn treble clef brass band style first and add bass clef for much easier to read concert band and orchestral parts later.

Regards

Gerard intonationaly frustrated time to take my meds in Melbourne

[termite]

Oh yeah - could someone please send me one of those Boesendorfers.
And a really good Holton 345.

Ta'

[aqualung]

Sorry folks, I just flunked piano math. Have too much of Finale's Interval and Key Alter parameters on the brain today.

However, when I play an Eb 3+1, the 3rd partials in treble clef notation are like F, F#, and G. And it's the guys on the BBbs who play out of tune.

[termite]

Oops - I meant 2nd. and 4th. - I can't count.

What model BBb's are the guys playing and are there any notes in particular that are a problem?

[wrongtrousers]

I started tuba in grade school, learned to read bass clef (of course) and taught myself to read treble clef for the fun of it. Jump ahead four decades... I was invited to play in a brass band and jumped at the chance. It took me a few months to start feeling comfortable but I stuck with it. It is not hard, you just have to be patient and persevere. I have been playing with this same brass band for 12 years now, playing BBb treble clef parts on CC tuba and EEB parts on F tuba. I now have the opposite problem, I have trouble playing bass clef parts when I'm playing with the band, not a problem in any other situation. More psychological than anything.

As for the BBb EEb thing, I was always told it was so you only had to learn two sets of fingerings and thus made it easier to move around from instrument to instrument if needed, the only exception being the bass trombone parts which were played on the old G trombones, and written in bass clef.

Simple answer is, you have to apply yourself.

[aqualung]

What model BBb's are the guys playing and are there any notes in particular that are a problem?

Thanks for asking, I know you are genuine.

Way way too many to list.

Spent nearly a decade in a NABBA band that went from winning multiple championships to being a doormat. I was low brass floater and played every instrument larger than a breadbox. Most of my basshorn time was on one of the band's 982s. They also bought a pair of 993s, but nobody wanted to wrestle with those behemoths. Members and subs usually used assorted German tubas in BBb or CC. Nobody except me really read treble clef. Even in the band's prime, the temperaments of the different-keyed horns were obvious. As well as the the aberrations of 3V compensating baritones and cornet players who didn't need to use their triggers. And blatweasels using FH mouthpieces.

And then there's the local BB I co-founded 26+ years ago. Noncompetitive, everybody is happy and we have a high rate of retention. Eb players read TC. The band owns a B&H Imperial crooked to Low Pitch, a JinBao 981 clone, and a little Conn 14J which handles the high parts pretty well. Basshorn section is only 9 players right now, not quite as full a sound as when we had 10. BBbs are mostly instruments that never crossed the Atlantic Ocean, some are intrinsically pretty nasty. I transpose all the BBb charts to bass clef and again, everyone is happy.

[NCSUSousa]

However, when I play an Eb 3+1, the 3rd partials in treble clef notation are like F, F#, and G. And it's the guys on the BBbs who play out of tune.

This one doesn't surprise me. Concert F, F# and G in that range are the worst tuning notes on my tuba (BBb).
BBb players have to learn how to adjust slides/embochure to get those notes in tune. It's not so noticeable when playing in a section of only BBb tubas, but it's something that needs work when playing with players on CC or EEb tubas (such as a British Brass Band).

[Dan Schultz]

.... I transpose all the BBb charts to bass clef and again, everyone is happy.

Bravo! I quit a brass band for about a year and missed one NABBA competition due to a 'snot' who chastised me for desiring bass clef parts. I transposed them when they were not available... and still do. The 'snot' has since moved on.

I can read treble clef parts but not as well as bass clef parts. This is challenging stuff and I need all the help I can get.

[Jess Haney]

Oops -
What model BBb's are the guys playing and are there any notes in particular that are a problem?

Our brass band has spent a good amount of time with tuning between Eb and BBb parts. Almost to the point of madness in sectionals. A CC or F player is an option as long as "all" players are competent with pitch tendencies and can move to agreeance quickly with troubled pitches. That said even different designs in the same keyed horn has different tuning tendencies. We have been having a serious discussion within our band to look for purchasing matching sets through grants or some other subsidies to alleviate some of the problems that a "heinz 57" section creates.

[Bbfoghorn]

The reason the parts are written in treble clef is because many players double on other instruments or learn other parts to cover for missing players. Oddly, the bass trombone part is still written in bass clef!

[Bbfoghorn]

I was lucky - I started my tuba playing on BBb treble clef in a brass band and added concert pitch bass clef later. I could already read both clefs from playing the piano.

Termite hit it dead on. I had 8 years of piano, clarinet and sax before my elementary school director asked me to play baritone, then tuba. I learned baritone treble clef, then tuba bass clef. the baritone fingerings and tones carried over to tuba so I already knew the treble clef fingerings for tuba. Now if I could only remember the slide positions for tenor and alto clef on trombone...