My lips will not buzz in a certain range...

[tubaknut]

Well, the subject mostly explain what my symptoms are.

The notes i struggle with are in this range. A good 1 1/2 octaves below and 3 octaves above this is usually no problem.

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The lack of buzzing is most evident when entering notes, and especially when tonguing them. The same applies for note entries using only air. However, if i descend or ascend in a scale, everything is fine and the sound is good. The problem is totally independent of mouthpiece and instrument. I had the same issues when playing E-flat for a year, and the exact same range causes trouble with my C-tubas as well. I also find it hard to produce any good buzz with just the mouthpiece in this range, and below. From this F and up, buzzing is fine.

I guess this is some lip response issue, but I frankly do not know how to best tackle this until I can get some professional one-to-one assistance in figuring out what is going wrong.

I'm starting to get really annoyed by this, and since this severely effects the normal playing register in the Bb-part in a British brass band, practicing is not fun anymore. With competitions coming up in a little over one week, I need to try anything possible.

Recommendations, anyone?

Best regards,
Knut

[tubaknut]

Hi Wade, and thanks for your reply.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I've never heard about focal dystonia previously, and it may be of help to others, if not myself.
After some googling, and reading some research papers on it, I will not rule it out. Actually, I will discuss it with my doctor at our next appointment.

When reading about the experiences of others, I must say that their symptoms seems terrifyingly similar to mine. My issue was something that started to appear some years ago, without anyone being able to explain what was going on. Some pros suggested that I should take a few weeks off, to see if it improved when I got back to playing again, but sadly it didn't. From previous experiences, having a few weeks rest always did good for the embouchure, and though if I still notice that the embouchure is better to some extent after a break, this certain range is always causing trouble to me.

Another interesting thing I read while looking up focal dystonia, is that some musicians find that they can temporarily remedy their symptoms by palpating an area near or around where they experience trouble. This is also the same for me. I find that when palpating the sides of my lower lip, just outside the mouthpiece, clean note entries are much, much easier.

I should definitely investigate this further, and ask my doctor about it. Although, I really hope that it's not FD. Playing is just about everything I do besides work... But thanks once again, for highlighting this as a possibility.

---

As for others - please do not hesitate to share your recommendations for mouthpiece exercises or other drills that you may know of.

[bububassboner]

Most, if not everyone, has a break in their chops that they bridge. For some, that bridge is easily crossed, for others, not so easy. Sometimes we create a wider hurdle to cross and run into trouble.

I solved it by using lip slurs and scales that crossed that area, both going up AND down.

I also made sure I was using the LEAST amount of embouchure muscle possible and maximized my air flow. Let the chops ride on the air and don't have the chops try to control the air. Let them be along for the ride.

This is great stuff for you right here.

...maximized my air flow. Let the chops ride on the air and don't have the chops try to control the air. Let them be along for the ride.

You should tell yourself this before every practice session. I have seen exactly what you are describing and working on just these little bits has helped EVERYONE who has had this problem.

[tubaknut]

I solved it by using lip slurs and scales that crossed that area, both going up AND down.

I will definitely try to continue with what I'm doing then. I try to focus on lip slurs in all the different intervals across middle and low register, and play a lot of scales.

When doing scales, did you tounge them, or did you do everything legato?

[tubaknut]

I solved it by using lip slurs and scales that crossed that area, both going up AND down.

I will definitely try to continue with what I'm doing then. I try to focus on lip slurs in all the different intervals across middle and low register, and play a lot of scales.

When doing scales, did you tounge them, or did you do everything legato?

I found it most difficult to play legato at first (I sounded a lot like a donkey!). I started with tongued staccato scales and interval studies crossing my break and worked toward smooth, slurred legatos.

I recognize the donkey! I find it impossible to play tongued scales. It will sound like a mix of a stubborn donkey and one large soda bottle falling down the stairs. If I take your approach, and start with the legato, I'll hopefully be fine in the end.

[royjohn]

I'm certainly no expert, but I wondered when I read this if the OP could be switching from an upstream to a downstream embouchure and experiencing problems in the area around the shift. Just something to check out.

[Doug Elliott]

That's probably very close to what's going on - two separate embouchures that don't meet in the middle. There are actually more embouchure types than just "downstream" and "upstream." Many players run into this type of problem, and it is the major cause of the "dystonia" issue although sometimes it doesn't cause such major problems. For an embouchure to work efficiently over a lifetime, it needs to be ONE type that doesn't have conflicts with switching to another type. EVERY case of "dystonia" that I have seen involved type-switching, and I think that is the root cause.

If you would like to pursue that, PM me. I can take a look by Skype.

[tubaknut]

Thanks for the offer, Elliott. I've sent you a PM.

From earlier I've had my upper and lower embouchure meeting around G/Ab below the staff.

It seems like some struggle with legato and some struggle with tonguing, with me being the latter of the two. How would you guys go about building control with intervals if you were not able to tongue them? Pursue with slurs until they are rock solid, and then introducing the tongue ever so slightly?

[sweaty]

I wouldn't jump onto the dystonia diagnosis. As a school band director, I see players all the time who have trouble getting notes to speak in mid-range, but they can go much higher and lower. I see it with raw beginners and with kids who have been playing a while. Just keep plugging away, learn what you can, and don't stress over it.

[Untersatz]

ROFLMAO

[UDELBR]

I wouldn't jump onto the dystonia diagnosis.

Yep. Neurologists make this diagnosis based on nothing more than their impressions; there are no clinical tests for FD. And once the diagnosis is made, the stigma sets in and that's irreversible.

[TubaKen]

"...do not hesitate to share your recommendations for mouthpiece exercises..."

How much mouthpiece practice do you do? The reason I ask, is I personally know of two trombone players who ruined their chops, for good, by excessive mouthpiece practice. (Jimmy Stamp exercises, primarily.) The first symptom was not being able to play in the middle register.

Just a thought...

[tubaknut]

How much mouthpiece practice do you do? The reason I ask, is I personally know of two trombone players who ruined their chops, for good, by excessive mouthpiece practice. (Jimmy Stamp exercises, primarily.) The first symptom was not being able to play in the middle register.

I haven't done that much mouthpiece practice at all. In periods I've done some, but mostly not at all. It is only a recent thing, hoping to get my lips comfortable to buzz with it.

When trying to produce a tone on the mouthpiece, or on the tuba for what it matters, my lip gets spasms when trying to go straight into some of the tones.
I can to coax my lips to buzz by distorting my lips a bit, but then I'm not able to do any legato to any other notes at all without having strange sounds. When just relaxing the lips, and blowing a good amount of air, the lip goes bananas. I will eventually get some form of tone, but it will be very weak, with little core or quality of sound.

I did some testing today, and when doing legato scales across this range, my embouchure seems stable, and does not change that much. Or that's the impression I get when looking in the mirror. But it still may just be an illusion, and that I'm actually changing a lot.

[Ben]

I would highly recommend taking Doug Elliott's offer over skype. His understanding of embouchure function is second to none. I would trust his diagnosis over any general practice physician, FWIW. It is good to hear that you don't have the daily stress of needing to perform at a very high level for the majority of your income: you should have some time to work your way out of this (whatever that may be!)

Keep positive,

Ben

[gwwilk]

I would highly recommend taking Doug Elliott's offer over skype. His understanding of embouchure function is second to none. I would trust his diagnosis over any general practice physician, FWIW. It is good to hear that you don't have the daily stress of needing to perform at a very high level for the majority of your income: you should have some time to work your way out of this (whatever that may be!)

Keep positive,

Ben

+1
(I will add that my solution to this problem, which always recurred after a few days away from the tuba, was to start each session on the tuba with Michael Davis' '20 Minute Warmup Routine' for tuba. This book contains mostly slurred exercises covering the range you are experiencing problems with. These exercises when played up to or above the indicated tempo force me to relax and adopt, or relearn if you will, an embouchure that facilitates my entire range. So I would recommend not just any slurred exercises, but these very specific ones. I had to use them regularly for quite a while along with understanding and using Roger Lewis' and others' range-embouchure tips before the magic happened. YMMV.)

[Oceantuba]

Hi all.

Edited for clarity, brevity. Removed swears and self serving comments.

On my current gig, had occasion to hear the 2nd trombonist buzzing his MP during breaks. He can buzz real good from mid straight down to flapping low. I have heard this buzzing ability before from different players. On my bass bone piece or tenor piece, from a middle C, I can buzz maybe down to a low G or E (just below bass F clef staff). Beyond that, I have to make a *relatively* significant shift to make notes below that G or E to speak. Like the shift is almost more than I'd make when actually playing the horn. Can't recall if i was ever able to do so as in prior years, as MP practicing wasn't something I'd learned early on. NOT saying MP practicing is "good" or "bad" but IMO, once you insert the MP in to the whatever horn (cone,cylinder), that horn + its' backpressure, is what you play; not the MP. To be clear, I'm not saying that MP practicing is "right or wrong". (and I imagine it's a topic that's been discussed here many times). Moreover, I've heard and worked with great players who swear by MP practice.

In later years I've run into subtle facial mechanical troubles and do wonder if a lack of low range on the MP alone is an indicator of something lacking or wrong.

OT.