Why a Lip Trill in Meistersinger?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Just curious.....in my edition, there is no mention of the trill in Meistersinger, being a lip trill.

Is there a reason that I have seen people talking about it being a lip trill, that I am not getting?

[Peach]

It's just a trill.
If it's cleaner for an individual to lip trill that's why they do it.

[MikeMason]

Because they won't use an f tuba.which works great.

[UDELBR]

It is a contrabass work

It's written for F tuba, and there's no denying it. Interesting that your first post here argues for great attention to the score (soli, blend with cello, etc.), yet you now argue against Wagner's explicit choice of instrument.

Which is it then: loyalty to the composer's intent, or only when you feel like it?

[MikeMason]

I've only done this 3 times for money. I use c(b flat) on first page,f on second page.worth it to me for ease of trill alone to bring two horns.for me,makes the piece more fun instead dreading the trill. I just simply choose not to invest the hours(years) of work on that trill that it would take to perfect, to basically use once.just my bivocational tubist practical solution.wade is in a different league from me and I prolly should make a trip for a concert/lesson/beer

[UDELBR]

I do not believe that Wagner had anything in mind at all on any of his works.

Seriously? It's generally acknowledged that he was a complete control freak: inventing new instruments to fit the sound in his head, designing his own opera house to house his visionary works since no existing ones would do, even designing stage machinery that hadn't existed before to support the effects he wanted. You think he'd have been indifferent as to whether the instrument the tubaist used 'slotted' a fifth higher or lower? If that were true, the contrabass trombone, bass trumpet, and Wagner tuben wouldn't have been invented at all.

The clear difference in his designations of "bastuba" and "kontrabastuba" aside, (and no, I can't agree that some publisher would have gotten away with changing this on Wagners music...), look at the difference in range and texture of the Meistersinger part and (say...) his Dragon solo. There's clearly a difference of at least a fifth in the way it's written, indicating he wanted an instrument with a different effective range. Oh, and did I mention the parts are marked for different instruments?

EDIT: No mention of composer's intent in there. Were you talking to me? I am confused...

What speaks to a composer's intent more than the notes he chooses to commit to paper? Just because you don't use the word "intent" doesn't mean you're not discussing his intent.

[MackBrass]

Developing the lip trill takes a lot of time and practice. If you don't have one then when performing or auditioning do it on f tuba. In my audition days I always used the F and advanced while using the f for several auditions. After you developed it then it's a matter of choice on what sounds better with the group your playing with. If I were to audition today I would have to decide which was better for me to get the most music out of the part before making a final choice on horns. I feel as though you should be able to do the part on both horns and work the trill as this will give you more options.

During my audition days I sent tapes to LA and Dallas and performed the excerpt on f tuba, I was invited to both auditions. My feeling is that due to the higher register it can be difficult to distinguish between bass and contrabass tubas.

Lip trill is needed when using c or b flat while on f it slots nicely using basic fingerings. Although i may play once a week these days i do use the lip trill as it challenges me more for conditioning purposes.

[Posaune2]

The clear difference in his designations of "bastuba" and "kontrabastuba" aside, (and no, I can't agree that some publisher would have gotten away with changing this on Wagners music...),

Do Wagner or Bruckner ever use the term kontrabasstuba in a piece that doesn't include Wagner tuben? Is it possible that they use the term kontrabasstuba not to specify a particular size tuba, but merely to distinguish it from the bass tubas that are being played over in the horn section?

When you have tenor tubas and bass tubas already appearing above the usual tuba line in the score, how else would you make it clear that you have three different kinds of tuba in the piece?

Eric Carlson

[Z-Tuba Dude]

The clear difference in his designations of "bastuba" and "kontrabastuba" aside, (and no, I can't agree that some publisher would have gotten away with changing this on Wagners music...),

Do Wagner or Bruckner ever use the term kontrabasstuba in a piece that doesn't include Wagner tuben? Is it possible that they use the term kontrabasstuba not to specify a particular size tuba, but merely to distinguish it from the bass tubas that are being played over in the horn section?

When you have tenor tubas and bass tubas already appearing above the usual tuba line in the score, how else would you make it clear that you have three different kinds of tuba in the piece?

Eric Carlson

I believe that Mahler used the designation "bass tuba" and "contrabass tuba" in the parts for at least a few symphonies.

[joh_tuba]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19121

Really interesting to read what's essentially the same thread from 7 years ago.

And from 12 years ago: http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/sep2002 ... 06149.html

Simpler time..

[Scott Sutherland]

Whatever it takes, and whatever does it the best.

If I had a ascending whole step valve on the open horn, you'd better believe I'd use it.

I may have to ask Bobo if he ever used his G tuba (cut 180) for this. The trill would be particularly easy on that instrument.

[Untersatz]

Enuff with all the CC vs F nonsense!
Wade is right "use whichever horn sounds the best"
If you can play the F Tuba with enuff bottom end, then do it.
If you can play the CC Tuba & can make it sing in the higher register, then do it.
But if you want to know the truth..........in 1867 this is tuba that Wagner envisioned
for Die Meistersinger because you can play the best "lip trills" on these horns

Saxtuba1867.jpg

[UDELBR]

Enuff with all the CC vs F nonsense!

Yes yes! Enuff.

[Roger Lewis]

In my experience lip trills aren't that hard. I've taught amateurs and pros to do them in less than 5 minutes. Then it is just a matter of practicing to develop the consistency and timing. The usual practice in Meistersinger is to start with a slower valve trill and then go into the lip trill to match what the basses and celli are doing. Unless told otherwise, I just try to match what's going on and stay the heck out of the way. I usually do this on CC but have done it on F on occasion.

But I agree - it is not a solo.

Just my $0.02.

Roger

[k001k47]

Would it stick out like a sore thumb if the tubaist just played a whole note?