High range mouthpiece?

adam0408 · Post by **adam0408** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:15 am

Okay, I have a question that may be and probably is a repeat of a question that has been asked a few times.

I am currently playing on a R&S TUHHII Mouthpiece, and I love it. For those of you that dont know what it is, its a helleberg copy with a bunch more metal around it. I am casually shopping around for a mouthpiece that will better serve my high range. Basically what I want is a piece that will smooth out my high register and make it easier to play focused and in tune up there. Should I look for a shallower cup, or should I focus more on cup diameter? I really like the sharp edges of the helleberg rim. Any reccomendations?

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:24 am

well, this was a topic not too long ago....and I "Think" the sentiment was that diameter does NOT play as much of a role as most people think, whereas a shallower cup (& narrower back bore) will help some. Dont forget working on the buzz....since ultimately the buzz needs to happen to create the note.... sing/buzz/play I think is a pretty good way to go about it. good luck

adam0408 · Post by **adam0408** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:37 am

The thing is, I am not looking for a magical solution, I just want a 'piece that might make things easier up there- make it easier to direct my airflow in a positive direction and FOCUS my tone more.

I guess all it comes down to is the fact that I am a bit of a gear junkie and am not happy with just one piece.

JayW · Post by **JayW** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:10 am

hey believe me....I am still searching fo the perfect mpc too, although am quite happy thus far with what i have now.

I would take your horn somewhere that you would have access to many different mpc's...say a Dillons, WW BW, Baltimore, Custom Music, etc..etc.. or one of the many conventions they all frequent.

My guess is that you may like shallower, perhaps more rounded cup....PT-64 (trad an "F" tuba mpc.) may be what you are looking for, but I would seriously try them out. If you like the rim of the helleberg style I would try to stick with that, less adjustment needed in the face if the rim is close in shape/size.

good luck

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:26 am

Search for a much earlier post by Roger Lewis on embouchure concept for high register playing. What you seek is technique, not a mouthpiece.

That having been said, if you want to cheat, get a "euph sized"* mpc for your tuba -- something like a Yamaha (John) Griffiths signature mpc, which is close in diameter to a Wick 5 / 5L, for example. (Hmmm, I just happen to have one of these, soon to be listed FS at this site . . . .)

Cheers!

* Yes, I know these are bigger than euph mpcs, thanks.

happyroman · Post by **happyroman** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:37 am

For me at least, diameter does make a difference in register. I know it is more difficult to play in the lower register if I use a smaller diameter MP, and assume that it helps me play higher.

The logic is that a smaller diameter shortens the "length" of the lip which can actually vibrate inside the cup. The shorter the length of the vibrating surface, the easier it should be to get it to vibrate faster, thus making it easier to produce a higher pitch.

Cup depth is obviously also important, but I haven't given it much thought.

I generally use three MPs on my Rudy 5/4 CC. I have a Laskey 30H for contrabass parts like Prokofiev 5, a Cooley Helleburg for mid range stuff like Die Meistersinger, and a Schilke 62 for high range pieces like Berlioz. Since I only have one instrument, changing MPs helps me achieve the sound I want for different repertoire.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:05 pm

Your multiple mpc strategy with one horn is certainly a good one to get a variety of different sounds or timbres from the horn. But have you considered that the change in mpc diameter from a small mpc (31mm) to a big mpc (33mm) is only 2/31, or about 6%? I suspect this isn't enough of a change in the amount of lip vibrating to make a big difference.

The key is to have the lips vibrate faster. But if we try to extend this logic, then to play an octave higher, the lips need to vibrate twice as fast, and you'd want the mpc diameter to be half the size (16mm), right? But that's similar to an Eb alto horn mpc, I think. We know that a three to four octave range is achievable without having to significantly shrink the mpc size, however.

IIRC, Pat Sheridan used to play with a PT-72, before switching to more "exotic" mpc's. The diameter of the 72 is 32.5mm -- a "typical" dimension. Yet his upper register is amazing. Therefore, I have personally concluded that there is some other approach that can lead to effective high register playing, although I don't deny that a slightly smaller mpc makes upper register playing feel easier to me, also.

Roger Lewis' "long ago post" suggests an effective way to modify embouchure slightly to make it easier to speed up lip vibration. It's worth the time to go find it, if you haven't read it yet.

Regards,

adam0408 · Post by **adam0408** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:14 pm

Cool, yeah. I have a good high range (I have resisted bragging), I am just looking for a mp that will work things better up there. So what I have basically gathered from all of this is that I need to try a bunch. back to square one.

Charlie Goodman · Post by **Charlie Goodman** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:28 am

All "equipment doesn't matter and it's all in your technique" posts aside, I understand that the shallower cup will make things considerably easier.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:18 pm

Steve Inman wrote:Your multiple mpc strategy with one horn is certainly a good one to get a variety of different sounds or timbres from the horn. But have you considered that the change in mpc diameter from a small mpc (31mm) to a big mpc (33mm) is only 2/31, or about 6%? I suspect this isn't enough of a change in the amount of lip vibrating to make a big difference.

The key is to have the lips vibrate faster. But if we try to extend this logic, then to play an octave higher, the lips need to vibrate twice as fast, and you'd want the mpc diameter to be half the size (16mm), right? But that's similar to an Eb alto horn mpc, I think. We know that a three to four octave range is achievable without having to significantly shrink the mpc size, however.
.....

16 mm is a very small trumpet or french horn mpce. (17-18 mm is normal for both. Eb alto is about 20 mm)

Diameter can help somewhat, but is not really important. On my 17.5 mm french horn mouthpiece I can play down to low D (yes, sounding low D 4 lines below the staff...) This is not uncommon. Lots of trumpet players reach stratosphere notes on mouthpieces with relatively large diameters. (18 mm +)
The cup (and backbore) are much bigger factors in the equasion.

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:41 pm

Charlie Goodman wrote:All "equipment doesn't matter and it's all in your technique" posts aside, I understand that the shallower cup will make things considerably easier.

That's been my experience -- purchased a Marcinkiewicz ST4 last year, and used it for the bass trombone part in the Sibelius Violin Concerto in early December. It was noticeably easier to play up high, and brightened the sound considerably (the conductor was impressed that it blended with the 'bones so well).