Doubling Valve Trombone

[chao50]

Hi, first off, I'm new to these boards so I hope I'm posting in the right place. Anyway, I'm in my 5th year of playing tuba (sophomore in high school), and I've been interested in playing another brass instrument. I don't want to switch instruments, but learn to play something else for things such as jazz band. I've recently inherited a Getzen Caravelle Valve Trombone that's in poor condition, and I'm thinking about getting it repaired (or if its even worth it). What I'm happy about is that the valves (I think) will be the same as a three valved tuba, just an octave higher. My first question is, would this negatively impact my tuba embouchure (I've never played another brass instrument). Also, is it even worth it to play valve trombone? I've heard that intonation is a major issue, and that the sound is very stuffy. I don't have the instrument with me at this point in time so I can't judge how stuffy the sound of the specific horn is.

[Donn]

Where would you be playing it?

[chao50]

I would be playing it in jazz band and for fun. And before someone asks why I don't play tuba in jazz band, my director plays many pieces that don't need or call for a tuba part. And, we have a stringed bass player with absolute pitch that provides a bass sound for the ensemble.

[imperialbari]

Depending on how you approach the valve trombone playing it may focus your tuba embouchure, or it may stiffen it, so that you loose your low range on the tuba.

Conventional wisdom says small mouthpiece for the small bore valve trombone. My approach has been large, not too deep, mouthpieces like the Vincent Bach #3 with a small stem or the Denis Wick #4BS (which is the model with the small stem).

Minimum pressure and lots of air moved through the valve trombone is what will harm your tuba embouchure the least.

Klaus

[Art Hovey]

If you play a few minutes of trombone or euphonium almost every day it won't mess up your tuba chops, and may even help your high register. But if you let months go by and then pick it up suddenly you will notice some chops issues.

[Donn]

Is there possibly some variation between individuals on this point? I mean, while a lot of people who play multiple brass instruments do seem to be fine with whatever mouthpiece suits each instrument, there sure seem to be at least a few who are desperately committed to a single rim size. Maybe it's due to different ways we learn to use the mouthpiece rim. Personally, to the modest extent I play other brass instruments, it seems to occasionally have a salutary effect on my tuba playing, as I get stronger on certain fundamentals that are more immediately critical on the other instruments than on tuba.

I gather a lot of valve trombones aren't highly esteemed by low brass players, who all want to see larger bore instruments that blow like a trombone. This could be one of them not so highly esteemed ones. I think quite a few low brass players buy valve trombones, but have a hunch the people who really play valve trombone are typically not low brass players, tend to play pretty high in the range and don't mind the small bore at all, but that's just a guess.

[tofu]

I use a Bach 6AL in my valve trombone which I acquired when it was part of an odd lot package deal with a tuba I wanted at an auction of violins 30 years ago. 500 violins and one tuba and valve trombone. Go figure - nobody there but me was interested in either a tuba or trombone. I've been surprised at how much I use it. I always hear that valve trombones are stuffy, but this one is pretty free blowing.

I've never had an issue with it affecting my tuba playing. I've used it with my jazz band and the occasional marching type of gig etc. They are a lot of fun. You see a lot of them in Banda groups and so learning to use it as a double might come in handy for getting yourself some banda gigs - which seem more plentiful now then wear a tux/sit down/play tuba gigs. I've seen banda groups with two sousaphones and 2-3 valve trombones so as a double you would be extra valuable.

Edited to correct: I use a Bach 3 for my valve trombone. I use the 6AL in my slide trombone

[timothy42b]

I have a Getzen valve trombone, the model that has a choice of slide or valve sections in a big case.

It plays fine. If you feed it a tuba flow of air I imagine it would feel stuffy, but played as a trombone it's not bad at all.

However holding it is not trivial. Valve trombones are a good candidate for least ergonomic instrument ever built, I have not figured a way to play it for long.

As far as hurting your embouchure, I dunno. I've played tuba OR trombone, depending on what the band needed, never tried to double. I suspect that the more consciously aware you are of your mechanics, the less it would affect you.

[alfredr]

No valve trombone experience for me, but of my two sons, one played tuba and would also do bass trombone, euphonium, trombone, flugelhorn and wasn't afraid of a trumpet or even the piccolo trumpet. The other one pretty much stayed with euphonium, with a little dabbling in bass trombone. I seem to remember switching instruments to have been discouraged back in my day, but then maybe my band directors didn't think I would be any better on anything else anyway. They probably would have been right. But I figured with my kids, after hearing that their band directors had no problem with it, figured that giving them the chance to play other instruments, and maybe develop a little proficiency and understanding, could make them better musicians, and being better musicians could make them better tuba or euphonium players. It did not hurt them.

Tofu mentions that valve trombones are used a lot in Banda groups and could be a source of paying jobs. Banda also uses what appear to be alto horns. You can broaden your range a little bit more.

[swillafew]

I have a Bach valve trombone. My friends that have played it rave about it, but other trombonists almost always panic at the sight of it. You will wind up practicing more in order to keep your chops satisfactory on both. Sometimes it seems to help doing both horns.

[BMadsen]

Doubling is a tricky thing, but lots of fun. Some things to keep in mind:

1. In order to be taken seriously on your doubles, you need to sound like they are your primary.
2. If you plan on switching instruments on the gig, you need to not only practice each instrument, but the switch between each instrument as well.
3. Doubling can expand your gig potential, but at your age, I would recommend talking to your private instructor. If you goal is to freelance, they should support your decision, and help you find an appropriate teacher or (if they have the experience) teach you how to do it well. If your goal is to win an orchestral chair, this will be a distraction to that goal, since the time practicing trombone should be spent on tuba.

A little about my background:

I'm a low-brass freelance musician in the NYC area. I make my living performing on Alto, Tenor, and Bass Trombone, Euphonium, Tuba, and Bass Trumpet. I also play valve bone upon request (most often as part of Maynard tribute bands where they want me to play the valve bone part on "Superbone Meets the Badman"). As of this point, I have musicians on the scene who think of me as the following:

1. A jazz tenor trombone player doubling on all the other low brass
2. A classical tenor trombone player who doubles and also plays commercial music
3. A bass trombone player who doubles and plays in all styles.

Alto Trombone, Bass trumpet and Euphonium are not really "primary" instruments for the gigging scene in NY (at least, I don't know any NY musicians who make their living primarily performing on Euph or Bass Trumpet), but I have been told that I sound very good on them. As of this point, I've been told I'm an excellent tuba doubler, and I strive to get my tuba playing to the level where some people think of me as a tuba player doubling on the other instruments.

As for is valve trombone worth it, check out Bob Brookmeyer, Rob McConnell, Juan Tizol, Elliot Mason (bass trumpet), and others. If played well, it can be a unique instrument. But it won't be confused for a slide trombone - the sound of the instrument, due to the addition of valves, changes it's timbre.

You ask if it will impact your embouchure - the answer is "that depends." Mainly on how much you are willing to practice. If you are going to split your current sessions between the instruments (so, if you do 2 hours of tuba a day, and are going to then do 1 hour of tuba and 1 hour of valve bone a day), then yes, it will. If you are going to add time to your sessions (so, keep 2 hours of tuba, and then add more time for valve bone), then it shouldn't.

How do you deal with the intonation? Well, there are a few options - typically, most valve bones don't have the rings that trumpet players use to kick out the valve slides to adjust the intonation. So, you either lip it in tune, or have a tech build kickers that you can activate to adjust on the fly.

Finally, approach. I've found, from talking to doublers here in NY, and from my own experiments, that approach can come down to 3 broad categories.

1. Right mouthpiece for the horn. This is where the idea of "Small bore trombones use mouthpieces in the Bach 7 - 12C range" idea comes from - because the vast majority of musicians playing a particular size of horn have found that they get the best results from staying within those bounds. This approach means finding the best mouthpiece for your tuba (which you likely have) and your valve bone (which you would need to find), and then practicing a lot to make them feel like home no matter how quickly you need to change.

2. Minimize rim diameter changes. I know some musicians who use the bass trombone rim diameter on every horn (one player I know uses a Schilke 60 rim size), and then adjusts the cup and the shank to get the right sound out of the other instruments. This makes switching really easy, but also means you have to build very strong chops on a very large mouthpiece for a small horn (since inevitably anyone using this approach uses a bass rim on all their trombones and smaller instruments). Tuba is still it's own beast, so this approach would only come into play for you if you expand beyond valve bone.

3. Minimize rim contour changes. Some players use the same exact line of mouthpieces, and in the case of lines that have multiple contours available like the Bach mouthpieces, finding the same contours, and only change rim sizes. This is the approach I found works best for me - I use all Denis Wick Heritage mouthpieces, but change diameter to fit the horn (so, 7c for my small horns like the Bass trumpet, valve bone, and small bore tenor, 5bl for my large bore, 4bl for my euph, 1 bl for my bass bone, and the 2C for my tuba).

The best way to find out what works for you is experimentation - everyone's anatomy is different, which means that you will have to figure out what will work for you. I would give each experiment at least 6 months of serious practice/performing to settle in, and then decide if it's working.

Best of luck - I've found doubling to be extremely fun and rewarding, but it is a lot of work.