British baritone

[MaryAnn]

I've been drafted to play baritone in our local British style brass band. I have yet to find out of that assignment is going to "stick," because I have warned them that there are some buildings that may be too moldy for me to play a concert in without getting sick from the exposure.

But the question is about British baritones. I was lent a Yamaha tonight for the second half of rehearsal. I liked the fact that it was lighter than my euph by quite a bit, the valves were exceedingly easier to operate with my elderly and tiny hands, making it possible to play faster passages that I just can't on the euph, but.....it was, uh, blatty. I'm sure I can un-blatt it up to a point, but the query is about baritones in general. I had stuck a 12C in my euph to brighten it up to try to make it sound more baritone-y, and of course had that same 12C in the baritone. If I stuck a 5G in it I'm not sure how it would sound.

Anybody familiar with British baritones and their characteristics overall? This one, the Yamaha, was possible to play pretty well in tune, although not so well as my euph. I saw Wessex has a cheap compensator but do not know what it is a copy of. If a Besson, then I will have grave doubts about whether it can be played in tune.

[Alex C]

I talked to British Brass Band Conductor who told me that the characteristic sound of bands was based on the baritones and tenors overblowing their instruments. He indicated that the brassy effect of those sounds was blended into the overly dark sounds of the Conical instruments to produce the characteristic brass band sound.

I would interpret that to mean that blatty was acceptable in a real British Brass Band. I don't know that about American versions of the BBB.

[Rick F]

I've read on another forum that a 5G or 6-1/2AL works pretty well on a Yamaha baritone. Also, a Wick 6BS could be a good choice.
I'm sure you're aware that the baritone requires a bit less air to sound "sweet" than a euphonium does.

[MaryAnn]

Yeah I have to put quite a bit of air through the euph to get it to sound good. The baritone seemed to want less air to prevent blatt. I would have adjusted the blatt in time, at home, outside of a blaring rehearsal, but was also a bit taken aback by having the bell so close to my ear. What other forum would be a good one to go see what people say about baritones?

[Rick F]

Dave Werden's forum. Here are a couple of discussion threads about baritone (British style) mpc choices as you may not be familiar with that forum:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... post122273
This link above will take you directly to a post by a pro euph and baritone player.

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... post136616
This link is pretty recent by a member asking for help with mpc choice for a Yahama 621.

[Donn]

The first thing that popped up when I looked, so you've probably seen it -
The Swan (Il Cigno) Baritone Horn (Flicorno Tenore) Solo.wmv

What I hear there is a very determined effort towards a tight, focused sound, compared to the lush and somewhat saccharine classic euphonium. The one amateur player I know treats it more like an American baritone, and it's OK but nothing to write home about. The Europeans are right, it's a tenor horn.

[TheGoyWonder]

British baritone looks like it would be cool, but it never really is what I hoped.
You might think it could serve as low french horn, valve trombone, fill missing slots in trombone chords, or just have all-purpose synthy low brass sound. None of the above, it's just mezzo-meow all around. It is scored that way, so maybe a fun part to play, but sonically it's the Sunny D of the musical world.

If it's fun it's fun, that's the main purpose.
And in classic recordings, it is probably tenor and baritone overblowing that adds that signature dull roar to the ensemble sound.

[marccromme]

... I had stuck a 12C in my euph to brighten it up to try to make it sound more baritone-y, and of course had that same 12C in the baritone. If I stuck a 5G in it I'm not sure how it would sound. ...

I had the pleasure to play a Besson Sovereign BE955 3v compensated bariton for a half year, where I borrowed our Brass Bands instrument. This one was nice when played with a Bach 6 1/2 AL, or a Schilke 50. Smaller mouthpieces (Bach 7C, 12C etc) did not work well. Too much back-pressure, too metallic sound. Larger (Bach 5 or 4, Schilke 51) did lower the higher partials to much, making the sound dull. At least for me.

I don't like the more funnel-shaped DW mouthpieces on a bariton, I think more bowl shaped works better. But everybody her own choice ...

You need to save a bit on air flow compare to your euph, and embrace the lighter and more nimble feel, then it is a joy to play. Astonishly, I did not found the high register easier to play than on an euph.

[marccromme]

... or try a Yamaha 48 plain or 48 D, that works quite well also ...

[GC]

I've heard baritones sound like everything from a blatty valve trombone to a mellow near-euphonium tone, even in accomplished brass bands. Your mileage WILL vary. The best way to get the playability and sound you want is to borrow mouthpieces and try them out. It's likely that the trombonists around you have a big variety of small-shank mouthpieces. Gook luck finding the sound you want.

[MaryAnn]

Thanks for the links. All interesting. The video gave me a very good idea of what it is supposed to sound like. Friday night when I was handed the thing (Yamaha) was actually the first time I saw one up close, and I instantly put it in the category of "baritone alto horn" because of the shape. Like, same kind of sound but lower. I also found myself playing what I would normally think of as fourth horn parts combined with more melodic and sometimes low brass. I like variety, don't have the personality to be a principal player....and being primarily a horn player, can handle the offbeats without getting my panties in a bunch. I'm going to dig through my mpc collection and see what I have that is small shank, but the upcoming concert is likely to be done on my euph just because at this point in time I certainly sound better on it. The band is just trying to get itself together with a new conductor (old one retired) and is a bit discombobulated at present. Hopefully it will all fall together and everyone will be happy.

[iiipopes]

Yes, most (if not all) traditional 3-valve comp British Brass Band baritones have in the neighborhood of @ .510 bore, as opposed to a typical euph which has in the neighborhood of @ .580 bore. So the tone of a baritone does get really grainy at times, especially below open first ledger line middle C (traditional brass band transposed treble clef notation, same as treble clef baritone for American concert band music).

And unlike the euphoniums, which take a large shank, the baritones take a standard tenor- or small- trombone shank mouthpiece in their receivers.

Yes, the 6 1/2 AL is a standard mouthpiece. I have one myself. It plays well with these horns. The same can be said about the Schilke 50 and the Wick 6BS, which I also used to have one of each. But if you want something a little smoother in tone, but still British Brass Band baritone, then one of the Wick baritone series mouthpieces would be better, in your preferred cup diameter, since they are designed for the instrument.

Or if you don't want to put as much air through the throat of a mouthpiece as the Wick mouthpieces with their larger throats want to flow, then there is a sleeper out there that is not recommended much, as just about the only people who know about it are the marching corps, who only think about the mouthpiece as in-your-face, although it has a true funnel cup, 17/64 throat (one size larger, by only a few thou, than the G drill of a 6 1/2 AL or 5G), and gives a smoother tone with its true funnel cup: the King marching baritone mouthpiece SBBA (acronym for System Blue BAritone). I bought one for my traditional bell-front instrument in community band, and even though the cup diameter is essentially the same as a 6 1/2 AL, it is much smoother in tone than the 6 1/2 AL, which, concededly, is still a trombone mouthpiece with the rounded bottom of its cup, even if considered one of the standards, and seems to be what is shipped with new baritone or American hybrid bari/euph instruments.

[MaryAnn]

This one http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-14269-king ... piece.aspx" target="_blank intrigues me because it looks so much like a horn mouthpiece, which is of course what I am used to. I now have the borrowed bari at home but won't mess with it until tomorrow because i have a concert tonight on horn that I am going to need all my chops for. I don't know if Dillon does mpcs on trial or not but it's hard to trial a mpc without getting some marking on it just from inserting it in the leadpipe. And I forgot to add that I am allergic to silver and have to have gold, lexan, or sometimes nail polish on it will work, but not always. Eh. Right now.....I have a 6 1/2 AL I can put nail polish on, know I can get the 12C to at least get the pitches, know that my mature embouchure will work it out somehow....and we shall see. Thanks for the input. I had hoped for a somewhat narrower cup and the only narrower one I can find is a Bach 22, which somehow I doubt is going to turn me on much. The suggestion to query my trombone friends is a great one, since it would allow me to try a bunch of stuff for free. The only reason I have the 12C is because it was recommended for the P bone and it does work much better than anything else I have for that. P bone requires *really* funny air to play....but I digress, as usual.

[imperialbari]

The King mouthpiece may have the outer shape of a horn mouthpiece, but the cup still is only medium deep. Projection is much more important with a marching baritone than with one played on the stage, so this King mouthpiece is not likely to solve your problem.

Not for my own baritone playing, where I have used Bach 3 and DW4AY with opened up backbores on my 1967 compensated B&H Imperial, the best compromise between narrow diameter, gold plated, and baritone relevance very well could be the Denis Wick 9BS.

Old French style mouthpieces for peashooter trombones were narrow with a straight funnel profile and a sharper edge at the throat than usually seen with horn mouthpieces, but I only have seen them in silver plate. Isn’t that silver allergy really an allergy against nickel used in some silver alloys before that nickel component was banned from silver intended for jewelry? Goldsmiths’ workshops have a test set to detect nickel contents.

[MaryAnn]

As for the allergy, I don't know except that when I play on a "silver" mouthpiece, I get a sore spot on my lip that doesn't happen with either gold or lexan. Could be nickel, could be silver....I just have the quite consistent results.

[tclements]

I have a brass band here in the SF Bay area. We've been together for about 7 years now. I would like to say that 'blatting' is NOT an acceptable sound in the band. The greatest thing about brass bands is their ability to blend and balance. From the Eb cornet down to the lowest tubas, the desired sound is one of warmth and beauty. The only instruments where 'brightness' is desirable is the trombone section; it is their function to add that tone color. The main problem with the baritones is twofold: mostly played by euphonium players, many try to emulate that beautiful euph sound on the baritone, it's not possible, and two - most people don't PRACTICE the instrument, choosing to practice the euphonium and just open the baritone case on Tuesday nights. In order to make a beautiful sound on the baritone, one must spend as much time on IT, as on the euph. Sonically, the IDEAL sound is 1/2 way between the euphoniums, and the tenor horns.

I guarantee, that after spending some quality time with your baritone, it will sound as beautiful as your euphonium, albeit with quite a different timbre.

For a mouthpiece, I suggest you start with a 6 1/2 AL. If that does not make a blending sound, try a 5G (with a tenor shank).

Good luck

[MaryAnn]

I have ended up with a Yamaha 45C2 that I already owned from whenever. I have pretty much the same range as I do on my horn, perhaps losing a few notes in the high register due to the cup width, and perhaps some of the pedals are quite a bit more accessible than on a horn for the same reason. I bought some non-toxic expensive clear nail polish and put it on the rim, and so far so good with the metal allergy. Tone-wise, it is not at all blatty (I AM a horn player, and we do not seek blatt.) My opinion on embouchure in general is that if you have a well-functioning embouchure (which mine is when the dystonia is in remission) and a reasonable cup, you will get a characteristic sound out of the instrument, no matter what it is. Yeah you can form the sound in various ways, but it is possible to get the characteristic sound without a lot of effort.