Vintage Besson E flat tubas

[adelarosa]

Dear TubeNet,
I've been attempting to use the search engine on this forum to avoid an unnecessary post but, alas, I either find myself trudging through a plethora of results or nothing. Yes I've tried search keys. Yes I've gone dozens of pages deep in said searches. In any case...

What is the general opinion of vintage Besson instruments? 3 valve, 4 valve, New Standard vs Imperial vs Sovereign.

I've played one 983, I'm told a very good example of a 983, and am wondering if the general reception is the same with others. Vintage or new, I'm just learning.

Thank you!

[iiipopes]

Dear TubeNet,
I've been attempting to use the search engine on this forum to avoid an unnecessary post but, alas, I either find myself trudging through a plethora of results or nothing. Yes I've tried search keys. Yes I've gone dozens of pages deep in said searches. In any case...

What is the general opinion of vintage Besson instruments? 3 valve, 4 valve, New Standard vs Imperial vs Sovereign.

I've played one 983, I'm told a very good example of a 983, and am wondering if the general reception is the same with others. Vintage or new, I'm just learning.

Thank you!

From the beginning right up until the demise of the Edgeware Road factory, most Bessons and their B&H siblings, (post-merger coming down the factory line together - the only real differences were cosmetic - fluting or knurling of the valve caps, plating or lacquer, etc.), were/are well received. Then through the reorganization times, there were good and bad, and now they seem to be relatively stable again. Some have complained about "stuffiness," but that is part of the inherent nature of any compensating instrument that routes the plumbing back around for a second pass through the valve block.

This thread could eat a lot of bandwidth. But, oversimplified, to address the nomenclature:
"Imperial" is the name used for the B&H versions, of whatever era, until Besson stopped using the B&H brand as a brass line.
"New Standard" is the Besson name for the same horns, roughly from the '50's until the '70's.
"Sovereign" is the redesign of the tubas from @ the late-'70's onwards. Someone originally forgot to factor in the change of nodes and tuning when changing from the older 15- and 17-inch bells to the 19-inch bells, and some early Sovereigns needed the "Fletcher cut" to get them up to pitch.

Bloke has a really nice Eb. The New Standard BBb 3-valve comp I used to have was one of the most in-tune tubas I have ever played, and only stuffy on a couple of notes. In spite of the ergonomic complaints, they are still traditionally popular among the brass bands. My shoulders don't like upright valves anymore, but I love the Besson 17-inch bell tone, so I grafted one onto my Mirafone tuba. Look up the thread on "Bessophone."

They do tend to be "substantial" instruments. So if you find one where the valves are good, then it is worth repairing, although, just as with any older instrument, you may have to take it to the shop at least once a year, not only to clean it and have the corks and felts renewed, but to re-solder deteriorating solder joints. Most suffer from the tell-tale flat spot on the bottom bow where someone tried to rest it on its bell (especially the 17-inch bell instruments), and it got knocked over.

To each his/her own, but I find that the Wick 1 mouthpiece works very well indeed with the BBb's and the Wick 3 works well with the Eb's. Among others, a significant number of players like the 24AW with the Eb's. My BBb was especially amenable, especially when I played it outdoors, with a lexan Kelly 18, with its rounded cup having a little more projection than the broad tone with the Wick. Kind of an "Our American Cousin" tone.

I'm surprised you've had trouble searching. Try different search terms. Over the years, there have been many, many threads about Besson, B&H, comp tubas in general, etc. I hope this provides a "thumbnail" summary as a point of departure.

[adelarosa]

Thank you kindly for the information.
As for the searching it's not the lack of info but trouble finding pertinent info with the terms. I get frustrated because the engine chooses to omit certain terms or refuse to incorporate their usage based upon length, relevance, popularity, etc, so it poses an issue when attempting to distill searching (more akin to how one searches on Craigslist).

Typically I'll get blasted with hundreds of pages of non relevant posts. Maybe just my experience.

Thank you, again, for the wonderful insights

[oedipoes]

Thank you kindly for the information.
As for the searching it's not the lack of info but trouble finding pertinent info with the terms. I get frustrated because the engine chooses to omit certain terms or refuse to incorporate their usage based upon length, relevance, popularity, etc, so it poses an issue when attempting to distill searching (more akin to how one searches on Craigslist).

Typically I'll get blasted with hundreds of pages of non relevant posts. Maybe just my experience.

Thank you, again, for the wonderful insights

I use google advanced search for searching this forum... works great!
Type in your search terms like this:
besson eb site:forums.chisham.com
and it will display only results from this forum, very useful.

I use a vintage Besson Eb in brassband and I like it!

[adelarosa]

I use google advanced search for searching this forum... works great!
Type in your search terms like this:
besson eb site:forums.chisham.com
and it will display only results from this forum, very useful.

Ah yes, thanks for the advice. Much better!

And bloke I meant to call last night but life intervened... Perhaps today will go as planned...

[Lectron]

I have 3 "vintage" ones, all Imperial. The predecessor of Sovereign.

Both (Eb & Bb) the 3+1 has new leadpipe/receivers and now also nylon guides instead of the rather "cluncky" brass ones.
These pré 1982 instruments are made from a total different alloy then the newer ones.
Much harder (new one often referred to as butter-brass)
The difference in feel/sound is a li'll like difference in hydro/spun vs hand hammered bell/bow

I quite like them

[imperialbari]

Imperial was the top line of Boosey already before the 1930 merger with Hawkes.

New Standard was the top line of Besson already before B&H bought the Besson brand in 1948.

Tubas of these lines were made until the end of 1978. From 1979 through 1982 there were hybrid tubas with 19" bells and small receivers made under various names. The 3TP compers still had 15" or 17" bells. I have seen a Besson Imperial, a name not reflecting the company history. From the beginning of 1983 there were Sovereign tubas, all 3+1P compensators with 19" bells. Two Eb models, 981 and 982, with lowset concert leadpipe and higher marching leadpipe respectively.

My Yahoo based gallery has these entries among 9000+ other entries:

Boosey & Hawkes early catalogue pages

1958 Besson catalogue scans

Besson New Standard 1977 low brasses

Boosey & Hawkes 1978 tubas with specs

Besson low conical brasses illustrated in a circa 1985 catalogue

Plus quite a lot of photos of individual Besson and B&H basses.

Link for the index is in my signature.

Klaus

[adelarosa]

Imperial was the top line of Boosey already before the 1930 merger with Hawkes.

Thank you for all the history. Did the B&H Imperial continue to be the top-of-the-line (quality in build and sound) until the finish of the line in the early '80s? I'm curious on what the general reception of these horns is throughout the community and E-flat players.

[imperialbari]

Please note the mentioned transition years with funny names, including just Besson, Besson Imperial, and B&H Imperial. Otherwise Imperial and New Standard were the respective toplines until Sovereign was represented within the different instrument categories.

But Sovereign models were not equally welcomed by all. Name forgotten, yet the lead euphonium player of the professional Hendon Band had taken part in the development of the Sovereign euphonium. When I saw him play in Royal Albert Hall during the first European Championship in 1978, while the adjudicators conferred, he played an Imperial, ten years or so after the release of the Sovereign euph.

Klaus