CC vs. BBb

[rascaljim]

How many tubists in professional orchestras play Bb? Maybe 1 or 2? The numbers speak for themselves. Craftsmen don't (ok, shouldn't) pick tools based on what everyone else says but on what they find to be most sutible for the job. Based on supply and demand, you would expect to see C tubas more in demand in the USA because of the vast majority of Cs in use by our mentors/artisans. High demand = prices go up.

I've been told that many of the technology advances in tuba production
go for C tubas instead of Bb tubas because of the C trend. This will answer part of the 'why are C's more expensive'. If you look to the technology and electronics sector it is plain to see that research and development transfer directly into pricing of the product based on how many hundreds of man hours, equipment and prototypes that were used to get to the final product. Why else does you cell phone cost 200 for a basic one which probably cost $30 to manufacture (of course meaning not with a contract... go try to just buy a cell phone and you'll find this out if you didn't know already. that's why they sell insurance) I'm pretty sure that if you do your research as I have spent way more time than I like to admit and have actually written a few papers at various points in my college career that also point to most of the advances occouring to C tubas before you see them show up on Bb. Al Baer designed the 1291 as a C, yes the Bb came out first, but I know Al was still working on tweaking the tuba long after the Bb came out.

The only reason that Bb is taught in grade school is because it's one less set of fingerings that the band director has to learn. Look at the large difference of students starting out on Bb compared to starting out on Eb (which, as I understand, used to be more common to see). I've also had discussions with my friends that are either music ed majors or were and they have said they just never really talked about that much in their classes. So prehaps the amateur Bb trend is a product of people taking short cuts (this last sentence is my opinion and I expect there will be people that disagree so don't get bent out of shape).

My 2c
Jim

[Lew]

How many tubists in professional orchestras play Bb? Maybe 1 or 2? The numbers speak for themselves.
...

That's true in the US, but not in Europe. I belive that the majority of orchestral players in Germany use BBb tubas. I do think that it's more based on tradition than anything else.

[Rick Denney]

Maybe I missed the memo, but doesn't any note require the same length (give or take the bugle proportions) to produce, especially from the same starting point (mouthpiece). What you're discussing seems to be bore/bugle proportions and sizes, even when you take into account alternate fingerings for intonation purposes. If I'm wrong, I'll just slink off.

You're right on most notes, of course. Where the partials overlap, one instrument might play a different partial than the other. A low C on a C tuba is a second-partial of the 16-foot length, while that same C on a BBb is the third partial of the 18-foot length plus the length of the fourth valve. This happens on B ad C in all octaves, F# and G starting at the bottom of the staff and going up, and Eb and E on the staff and higher octaves. A good F#/Gb on the staff is easier to find on a C than on a BBb.

But it goes the other way, too. If it is desirable, as is often stated, to play the instrument using the least amount of added valve tubing and the most conical open bugle, then the Bb has an advantage over the C (but not the Eb and F, which jumps a whole partial up). In the lower octave from low F to F at the bottom of the staff, a Bb tuba uses more valve tubing only on the B and C, and uses less on all other notes. In the middle and upper octaves above that, it's a wash with each of Bb and C having six notes in each octave that use less valve tubing.

Rick "who thinks most of the difference is comparing a beat-up school BBb to a new pro-model C" Denney

[AndyCat]

How many tubists in professional orchestras play Bb? Maybe 1 or 2?

A bit of a sweeping, incorrect, statement there. Maybe in the US, yes. In Europe, Russia etc. there are more Professionals using BBb's than CC's.
The player in one of the St.Petersburg orchestras plays a BBb St.Pete, a clunky one, and sounds great.

[rascaljim]

In reference to my above post I was refering to US for all examples including trends.

It is true that in Germany you are REQUIRED to play Bb. I've been told by a few different people that I will be removed from the stage if I try to use a C tuba.

If Bb is so much better and nobody can even get a job on one over there with a C, how come all those guys over in Germany aren't winning ANY jobs in the US on Bb.

Sorry to be confrontational
Jim

[Rick Denney]

I've been told that many of the technology advances in tuba production
go for C tubas instead of Bb tubas because of the C trend.

This is true for the tubas commonly sold in the U.S. But it's a chicken-and-egg question. The fanciest Meinl-Weston BBb that is easy to buy in the U.S. is a Model 25, and that's not going to give your 2000 much to worry about, heh, heh. But the Meinl-Weston Fafner in its rare hand-made version is the BBb equivalent of your 2000, and it may well find a larger orchestral following than the 2000 on a world-wide basis. And it's just as expensive.

The same could be said for the Rudy Meinl BBb tubas, which I suspect are made to the same standards as their C tubas, though not to many are imported to the U.S. Their high-end BBb tubas are as expensive as their high-end CC tubas.

Clearly, the market favored C at the high end. But other markets still favor the Bb and the manufacturers just sell their high-end stuff where there are high-end buyers for that product.

There are certainly more great CC tubas on the market, but that doesn't mean a Bb player can't find a world-class instrument to play. And for the most part he won't have to spring for the 5th valve and it will save him a buck or two (or 1000).

Of course, there are also some expensive CC stinkers on the market, too. At least most of the BBb stinkers are cheap, heh, heh.

Rick "who thinks price point affects detailing and finish more than design, but who also knows that price points are the same at the top of the market" Denney

[rascaljim]

I suppose this BBb versus CC question should be defined in the future to discuss the context of the question (ie amature vs professional, orchestral vs band)
There's always going to be variables. I don't have my CC tuba blinders on that make Bb tubas invisible, but I know for my purposes I woudn't even consider going back to Bb, but I'm sure as heck not gonna tell my friend that plays in a navy base band to stop playing his Bb.

here's another 2c
Jim

[Rick Denney]

If Bb is so much better and nobody can even get a job on one over there with a C, how come all those guys over in Germany aren't winning ANY jobs in the US on Bb.

Are they trying? Maybe they get a better deal over there. As you know better than me, orchestral tuba players over here don't get a wonderful deal. I know that Europe as a whole supports the arts with more lavish government funding than here.

Rick "thinking correlation does not prove causation" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Where the partials overlap, one instrument might play a different partial than the other. A low C on a C tuba is a second-partial of the 16-foot length, while that same C on a BBb is the third partial of the 18-foot length plus the length of the fourth valve

I realized, of course, that was possible right after I hit the submit button... and YOU did get that memo...

but whilst I slink off, allow me to toss out that it is just a product of the application... that and the "imperfection" of the equal tempered scale. Bands play in flat keys (predominantly; yes, there are exceptions, but bear with me) because of the predominance of Bb and Eb keyed instruments makes it easier. Orchestra pros, regardless of the horn used, tend to "purify" the intervals in chords by ear, confusing the he** out of a tuner-based approach (unless you have a programmable tuner, which takes us pretty far afield on another day's subject). The orchestral trumpets are often (not always I'll admit, but often) in C for the same reason; orchestras do not follow this "flat key" approach.

Now the trombones (which are most often in Bb, and the tubas are unhampered by written key, but whereas a trombone is capable of infinite adjustment, the tuba is affected by it's constructed key. And how many slides the tubist can grab. Which is one reason that while I was working, I loved my Marzan slant rotor CC, because it was as easy to "shade" as a trombone. Without changing the bugle proportions.

Slinking off now...

[Rick Denney]

Are they trying? Maybe they get a better deal over there. As you know better than me, orchestral tuba players over here don't get a wonderful deal. I know that Europe as a whole supports the arts with more lavish government funding than here.

Rick "thinking correlation does not prove causation" Denney

yo' fulla bulla. They can't afford the plane ticket to come over.

That doesn't mean they ain't getting a better deal. It's a fairly low threshold, and the discount fares are designed to take pot-bellied 'mercans like me over there, not the other way around, though the strong Euro might turn that around.

Rick "who doesn't think it's because they are scared or unable to compete" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Now the trombones (which are most often in Bb, and the tubas are unhampered by written key, but whereas a trombone is capable of infinite adjustment, the tuba is affected by it's constructed key. And how many slides the tubist can grab. Which is one reason that while I was working, I loved my Marzan slant rotor CC, because it was as easy to "shade" as a trombone. Without changing the bugle proportions.

Yeah, that top-facing main slide is pretty handy. I'd like to have that myself.

But I suspect that the main difference between the flat-key syndome and orchestral players has to do with experience and ability more than the limitations of the instruments. I don't think a decent BBb would be any harder to tune in an orchestra than a decent C, but I readily admit that most Bb tuba players have never developed that skill, and don't play in ensembles that give them a consistent target to aim for.

Rick "who falls way down into the Bb-player category on that issue" Denney

[MikeMason]

in my limited experience, few people besides other tubists(and not all of them)have noticed i switched back to BBb last year. i played CCs for15 years and really enjoyed my horns(a rudy 3/4 and a yam 822CC).I had a chance to change to some different equipment i had always wanted to try for very little money.I went from the 822CC and an old 621f to a Holton 6/4BBb w/new VMI pistons and a 5yr old 822f.It was a good move for me.I like the way i sound and all that have heard me like it as well(including an audition for a regional orchestra).No one has noticed or asked what key they were in,but did notice the change in size and sound.My next horn will be a 2341 for quintet and dixie and some orchestra.I see no need to keep up with 3 sets of fingerings for what i do.to each his own...

[punk_tuba]

in my opinion its like nascar

a dodge is a dodge
a ford is a ford
and a chevy is a chevy

sure the car is the medium to the finish line.
but its the driver that takes it there.

the same is the case here.

i'm a younger tuba player (18 years old, only playing for a few years). however, i try to focus most of my playing on what i'm doing right or wrong, not so much what my horn is doing right or wrong.

[windshieldbug]

in my opinion its [CC vs. BBb] like nascar.

... and half the fun is tradin' paint and gettin' woozy at the end of the day and swappin' lies...

however, i try to focus most of my playing on what i'm doing right or wrong, not so much what my horn is doing right or wrong.

Very true. But knowing how to set up your equipment and what to adjust where is part of it, too!