Low instrument chords

[TexTuba]

I don't understand. Are the sections playing unison? An actual chord? It does sound odd on a piano but I've found that with an actual group it sounds kinda neat. It could possibly be that your low brass section is out of tune...






Ralph

[MaryAnn]

Well, if you are playing root/third/fifth and all using a tuner, it IS out of tune. That would be true no matter what the instrumentation was.

I wish I could get a hold of all the people out there who have never had the opportunity to learn just intonation, because a whole lot of eyes would be opened and my ears would hurt a lot less at concerts. It's not difficult; it's just not taught for some reason.

MA, on the soapbox again.

[Chuck(G)]

Let's assume that you're playing in pitch and using a tuner (equal temperament) for each note, then what you're hearing are the difference frequencies between the two notes (You also hear the sum, but it's the difference frequency that creates problems).

For example, let's assume that one tuba is playing a C below the staff (C2) and the other is playing the G above it (G2). The frequencies of the two notes are 65.4 Hz and 98.0 Hz. The difference is 32.6 Hz and is an almost in tune C an octave down from the first. So far, so good. It gives you a pedal tone effect without having to play one..

Now, let's move the notes closer together. Play a low C and the E just above it. The E has a frequency of 82.4 Hz, giving a difference of 17 Hz, which is about a C# two octaves down, which sounds fairly rough and dissonant against the C that you're playing..

Now, let's assume just intonation (i.e. not what your tuner says, but what you can hear). A perfect third would have a frequency 5/4 of the base tone. In other words, if our low C was 65.4 Hz, the E would be sounded as 81.75 Hz. The difference would be 16.35 Hz, or a very much in-tune C two octaves down. But to do this, you have to play the E almost 14 cents flat from what the tuner says. This is what people mean when they say "just intonation"; the ratio of the frequencies played can be expressed as a ratio of two integers.

Or:

Code: Select all

   Major 2nd = 9/8 of base tone
     "      3rd  = 5/4 "
     "      4th  = 4/3
     "      5th = 3/2
     "      6th = 5/3
     "      7th = 15/8

You can see what's going on by playing intervals on the lower octave of the piano and seeing how strange it all sounds. Get a friend who can hold a note steady on tuba and try playing various intervals with him/her, adjusting your pitch until you get an in-tune sound that generates no low-frequency "beat notes". It's a sure-fire way to improve your ear.
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FWIW, when I arrange for tuba ensemble, the closes the 3rd and 4th parts ever come together is a fifth. Getting things any closer is simply inviting trouble.

[Rick Denney]

I have a completely unproven theory that:

Chords that define overtone series that have fundamentals that cannot be heard by humans do not sound very good to humans.

summary: badly-written tuba ensemble pieces = unpleasant listening

That sort of fits with my opinion, first taught to me by Ray Grim, that the third of the chord ought to be avoided below the staff. Bb in the staff, the D and F above it--no problem. Low Bb and the D and F below the staff--mud. Low Bb and the D and F in the staff--no problem.

Rick "who thinks tuba sounds are rich enough in overtones in their lower frequencies not to benefit from a lot of harmony" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Well, if you are playing root/third/fifth and all using a tuner, it IS out of tune. That would be true no matter what the instrumentation was.

I wish I could get a hold of all the people out there who have never had the opportunity to learn just intonation, because a whole lot of eyes would be opened and my ears would hurt a lot less at concerts. It's not difficult; it's just not taught for some reason.

MA, on the soapbox again.

I'm with you on that one, Mary Ann! It seems even singers aren't trained in just intonation nowadays, which is appalling.

Any low instrument is wonderful for teaching just intonation becasue the beat frequencies are strong and very easy to hear. Tubas are great because they lack the complexity of overtones that a stringed instrument has (which can mask dissonance).

Tuners do lie.

[Chuck(G)]

Tubas are great because they lack the complexity of overtones that a stringed instrument has (which can mask dissonance).

Whose tubas?

You got something against Bessons, Joe?

At least there aren't any pistons to worry abouit...

[Chuck(G)]

1/ When a tuba sounds "right" to me, the harmonic structure of the tone is very complex indeed (unlike the sound that would come out of that as-is Besson).

I figger that the this particular tuba is a trainer for those who are lookin' to graduate to "air tuba".

2/ Let's get real. Most tuba players (including plenty o' folk who receive check$ for doin' it) don't have their stuff within the 2-3/100 of a semitone range of control which would be required to make any sorts of distinctions between various tuning "systems".

No quibble there--but the poster did ask the question and said he and his partner were playing "in tune'. I just wanted to point out that there's different kinds of "in tune". And it is fun to practice sounding just intervals, even if you're not so good at it when the need arises.

If I don't watch myself, I'll start talking like those folks who claim there's lots of different kinds of "on time" too.

bloke "The oboe sounds the 'A' at the beginning, but when the tuber is playin' loud, everyone had best tune to the tuber (wherever it happens to be) or else...case in point: Listen to the opening of the old Solti/Zarathustra recording ."

But whatcha gonna do when you got a whole passel of tubas tryin' ta harmonize?

[Alex C]

If you want something to read to help you voice effectively for tubas, I would recommend the Kent Kennan Orchestration text. The suggestions he has on voicing in the low register are excellent and even though they are general general comments they can readily be applied to writing for tuba/euph ensembles.

I'd also suggest reading Hindemith's "Craft of Composition." Paul Hindemith wrote down more about music theory than most of us can ever learn (and he didn't write down all he knew). His explanation of sympathetic vibrations can provide a key to understanding what to write for multiple tubas and, more importantly, what NOT to write.

When I initially played the Ray Luedeke "Eight Bagatelles" for Tuba duet, I was struck by the richness of overtones I was hearing. For me, Luedeke seemed to understand and use much of what Hindemith wrote about.

I hope this helps the initial poster to understand what he is hearing.