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Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby the elephant » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:22 pm

mouthpiece GAP receiver GAP trumpet players *must* know something we don't GAP GAP GAP GAP hyper-sensitive changes everything my horn is ruined because my GAP is off by .25mm OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOD

aaaaaaaand

sousaphone tuning bits ** :shock: **
___________________________________________________________________

No one ever complains about using these in a 2xj or a sousaphone. Some have used them in other BATs to allow some flexibility with sight lines. Martins use two.

The DUMBEST thing I have ever seen was a young, super-impresionable player (okay, probably about 29 or 30 years old with enough life experience and musical education to know better) who posted here on TN a lot in the past as a know-it-all-sooper-geenieus commenting on how much of a "ginormous" (yes, this was his chosen adjective) improvement his AGR made on his $16,000 tuba. It was incredible. It sliced. It diced. It made Julienne fries AND he was sure it would get him into the next major symphony finals round. Then he added one Conn tuning bit, which allowed him to move his tuning slide almost all the way in, making the gaps at the ends of those two tubes as small as possible. (That is a thing, right? We all obsess about the gaps at the ends of our MTS. Right? AM I RIGHT???) And he felt that his flat-as-hell bottom line G was brought up in pitch by the tuning bit, "Just like it does with the F on the 2xJ series tubas."

Wait. What?

This kid was high on all those placebos he had been ingesting.

First, the flat F on Conn 2xJ tubas is there regardless of the bit being present. The original booklets that came with the horn explained that you needed to use the single bit AND that F needed to be played 13.

Next: He obsessed about a quarter turn of the AGR so much so as to have to stop playing an excerpt and start over after that quarter turn had been restored to his set for Wagner (he forgot to adjust it after some Mahler, which uses a setting that is a quarter turn off from his carefully dialed-in Wagner setting... seriously, here, he claimed all this to me) and THEN he had an engraver mark a bunch of tick marks on the AGR for "quick changes to maximize the AGR for audition settings". (This guy was a walking advertisement for junk like the old "Pocket Rocket" foolishness, a real Captain Placebo.)

So, all this obsessive behavior over quarter turns of your gap adjuster ———————

——————— and you then slap a Conn sousaphone tuning bit on there.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I hope you read this. You need therapy, man. Shame on you. You have students who look up to you and pay for good, solid pedagogical advice, but you are overflowing with excrement.

Good luck winning the Great ICSOM Tuba Challenge. I bet Red Bull is looking to sponsor a gear-savvy tuba player for their competitive tuba-ing team. Go for it.

I mean, DAMN! Make up your mind. Does the gap matter or not? If it does — precisely at that location, precisely that amount — how can a tuning bit help you in any way at all? If the tuning bit helps you, then the gap is not such a huge deal, so why obsess over your gap minder? Hint: tuning bits do not have a gap at all, and no one ever whines about the gap on a good Conn or King sousaphone. Okay, so maybe the Olds fiberglass is a bit touchy about it, heh, heh, heh...

I am not bashing either school of thought. I feel bad for kids who study with a player who is a neurotic about toys to the point that he uses things that would cancel each other out. Talk about your cases of Doublethink!

And now, back to your regularly scheduled musical thrombosis... :mrgreen:
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby windshieldbug » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:09 pm

the elephant wrote:I feel bad for kids who study with a player who is a neurotic about toys to the point that he uses things that would cancel each other out.


Wouldn't that just make him a trumpet operator!? :shock:
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:38 pm

Moving the end of the mouthpiece (which is expanding in size on the inside of the shank) to the choke point of a receiver (where the receiver ends, and where the mouthpipe starts) eliminates any reverse taper in the beginning of the instrument.

No listener can hear a difference, but a player can feel a difference (just as when a little chunk of tooth filling is gone).

Sometimes, eliminating the reverse taper (again: a reverse taper which is caused by some back-end of the mouthpiece receiver being exposed) will slightly speed up low range response (enough to be "helpful"), but not with all makes/models of tubas. Some players seem to believe that adding more of that reverse taper (exposed receiver interior) will make their sound prettier. Again, they may be able to hear something, but - likely - no one else can.

Sousaphone tuning bits (the back-ends of which are always made of one-thickness sheet metal) always introduce a reverse taper in the beginning of an instrument. Two sousaphone tuning bits will offer this event twice, obviously. Oddly (just as - seemingly - does "no reverse taper"), a really long reverse taper (such as with a sousaphone bit) also tends to "tighten up" the low range as a venturi effect begins to occur.

Any good player will adjust to any of these factors being in place or not being in place. There are effects, but (again) the player will either work with them or overcome them - as their playing style will unconsciously dictate...which is why "voodoo" is nearly accurate.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby Three Valves » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:55 am

I love the smell of a good rant in the morning.

Smells like, victory!!
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby Casca Grossa » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:29 am

I'd be curious what he dials his gap to for polka gigs.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby Tubaguyry » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:53 am

Some folks sure do use a hell of a lot of smart-sounding tech-speak and other mumbo-jumbo when describing what they need to do to sound good, don't they?

Sure seems like an extremely cumbersome way of saying "song and wind."

(And the funny thing about it is if you actually get the chance to listen to some of these guys who always have an opinion on the latest fad equipment tweaks, etc., the vast majority -- not ALL, but MOST -- that I've heard...well, in the interest of semi-diplomacy, let's just say their playing doesn't exactly help to lend credibility to their positions.)

I mean, guys like Floyd Cooley, Michael Lind, etc. could play cracked, fiberglass, three-valve sousaphones with leaky water keys and still sound like GODS. On the other side of the coin, SOME dudes -- no matter how much time/money/other they spend on new instruments or obsessing over minutiae -- will always sound like the garbage players they are.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby chronolith » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:05 pm

I don't bother with an AGR. I just stop and rewrap the shank of my mouthpiece with a precisely measured length of scotch tape between excerpts during auditions.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:59 pm

chronolith wrote:I don't bother with an AGR. I just stop and rewrap the shank of my mouthpiece with a precisely measured length of scotch tape between excerpts during auditions.


Image
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby windshieldbug » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:52 pm

chronolith wrote:I don't bother with an AGR. I just stop and rewrap the shank of my mouthpiece with a precisely measured length of scotch tape between excerpts during auditions.


"Would,the candidate please play the excerpt again, with 1/2" less tape and more commitment?"
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby iiipopes » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:16 am

bloke wrote:Moving the end of the mouthpiece (which is expanding in size on the inside of the shank) to the choke point of a receiver (where the receiver ends, and where the mouthpipe starts) eliminates any reverse taper in the beginning of the instrument.

No listener can hear a difference, but a player can feel a difference (just as when a little chunk of tooth filling is gone).

Sometimes, eliminating the reverse taper (again: a reverse taper which is caused by some back-end of the mouthpiece receiver being exposed) will slightly speed up low range response (enough to be "helpful"), but not with all makes/models of tubas. Some players seem to believe that adding more of that reverse taper (exposed receiver interior) will make their sound prettier. Again, they may be able to hear something, but - likely - no one else can.

Sousaphone tuning bits (the back-ends of which are always made of one-thickness sheet metal) always introduce a reverse taper in the beginning of an instrument. Two sousaphone tuning bits will offer this event twice, obviously. Oddly (just as - seemingly - does "no reverse taper"), a really long reverse taper (such as with a sousaphone bit) also tends to "tighten up" the low range as a venturi effect begins to occur.

Any good player will adjust to any of these factors being in place or not being in place. There are effects, but (again) the player will either work with them or overcome them - as their playing style will unconsciously dictate...which is why "voodoo" is nearly accurate.

+1!!!
I will only expand on bloke's first comment that the sound may be "prettier." Being under the bell, as a player we get a lot of feed back through the jaw bone, to the point that is more of what we "hear," rather than what is actually coming out front. A little more resistance from the two bits, as bloke describes, or to otherwise expand the "reverse taper," causes more resistance to the airflow, and that translates back to the jawbone and the temporal bone leading to the inner ear, so that there is a little more fundamental in the resonance of the jaw and skull, which is perceived as "prettier."
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby Donn » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:35 am

I'm having a hard time making the connection between airflow/resistance, and resonant feedback through the bone. But I could imagine how all that would apply to mass differences, like weighted mouthpieces.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:40 am

Guys, this is simply a post about a dumba$$ who bragged about using a device to do one thing, and then using another one to delete that effect. That is all.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby proam » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:09 pm

OK, I probably shouldn't venture in here since I am only a novice tubist, having spent 40 years or so as a decent trumpet player. As a trumpet player I am well-versed in gap theory and while I don't personally believe that it is the be-all, end-all that some do, instrument builders that I greatly respect do believe in it.

So how does using a tuning bit delete the effect of an AGR? The gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece (a drop off into the receiver) and the beginning of the leader pipe (a butt end of pipe within the receiver). As far as I know, using a tuning bit just extends the receiver, in a way. Like me using an adapter to use a cornet mouthpiece on a trumpet. You do change things --- you have the drop-off from the mouthpiece into the adapter and now a second drop-off from the adapter (or bit) into the receiver, but you still have the butt-end of the leader pipe tube to contend with.

I always thought the big bugaboo in gap theory was the butt-end of the leader pipe which is still there, whether you have a bit or not. The size and ... shape? ... of the gap is different, yes.

I do understand the rant is mostly about worrying about finicky little obsessive things. And not all trumpet players or makers believe in the gap. Schilke sought to eliminate it.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:29 pm

proam wrote:I do understand the rant is mostly about worrying about finicky little obsessive things.


yep...and my post's only real point was that the player is the only person who might (??) observe differences, and - after a while - they'll become accustomed to whatever they're using.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby the elephant » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:16 pm

proam wrote:OK, I probably shouldn't venture in here since I am only a novice tubist, having spent 40 years or so as a decent trumpet player. As a trumpet player I am well-versed in gap theory and while I don't personally believe that it is the be-all, end-all that some do, instrument builders that I greatly respect do believe in it.

So how does using a tuning bit delete the effect of an AGR? The gap is the space between the end of the mouthpiece (a drop off into the receiver) and the beginning of the leader pipe (a butt end of pipe within the receiver). As far as I know, using a tuning bit just extends the receiver, in a way. Like me using an adapter to use a cornet mouthpiece on a trumpet. You do change things --- you have the drop-off from the mouthpiece into the adapter and now a second drop-off from the adapter (or bit) into the receiver, but you still have the butt-end of the leader pipe tube to contend with.

I always thought the big bugaboo in gap theory was the butt-end of the leader pipe which is still there, whether you have a bit or not. The size and ... shape? ... of the gap is different, yes.

I do understand the rant is mostly about worrying about finicky little obsessive things. And not all trumpet players or makers believe in the gap. Schilke sought to eliminate it.


The gap moves from being something between 0" and .25" to being over two inches long, totally negating the AGR. There is no step inside tuning bits. The gap remains in the same location, but the end of the shank moves a long way away from the step in the receiver. (Also, regarding tuba "gap" — many tubas do not have one at all as the leadpipe is simply hammered to expand into a nickel silver sleeve. The receiver and the leadpipe are one continuous piece of metal. No gap because no joint.

Further, most receivers (trumpet, too) have a built-in step that matches the thickness of the leadpipe material. There is, again, no gap, just the end of the mouthpiece in space. If you have a cheaply made receiver where you still have a necked down step into the leadpipe then you have a cheaply made receiver.

I call "gap theory" persistent bovine feces, just like much of Dave Monette's ideas about mouthpieces. Garbage. Say what you will, if you step back and really think of these things you see they are bunk. Parts need to fit perfectly, and introducing a gap is interference in the air stream. There should be NO gap, ever, IMHO. Just sayin'... ;-)
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby bloke » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:14 am

"Gap" is totally the wrong word for "exposed mouthpiece receiver reverse taper".
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby peterbas » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:11 pm

A little more resistance from the two bits, as bloke describes, or to otherwise expand the "reverse taper," causes more resistance to the airflow, and that translates back to the jawbone and the temporal bone leading to the inner ear, so that there is a little more fundamental in the resonance of the jaw and skull, which is perceived as "prettier."


Where did you get this info?
Bloke and I hardly can agree on how the lips work which is based on some basic physical principles.
Your statement about resistance translates to the ear gives a prettier sound is more like something incredible.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby Alex C » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:23 pm

Many brands of tuba use the leadpipe as part of the mouthpiece receiver. In those cases, there can be no gap. I added an AGR to my BMB F tuba, no setting makes any difference in response for that reason.

But trumpet players are (more sensitive because A) a 1/4" gap on trumpet is equal to a 1/2" gap on trombone and a 1" gap on tuba B) no trumpet player worth a damn misses unless there is something wrong with his horn.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby Donn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:21 am

Hm, there are some interesting dimensional differences.

Trumpet's bore diameter is between 2/3 and 1/2 the tuba's, but its sound wavelength is 1/4 the tuba's. Shank edge thickness probably is also more than 1/4 the size of the typical tuba mouthpiece shank edge. There's a lot more room, I'm thinking, for those little vibrations to bounce around and get complicated, where in the tuba the details are a little less relevant to the big waves going through.

Anyway ... that shank edge thickness does create an abrupt difference in diameter, even if your receiver is just the leadpipe. In that case, has anyone ever reamed out the shank end to a short conical shape, for a more gradual transition? Seems to me I've seen something like that, but must have been pictures because none of mine are that way.
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Re: Deep Voodoo/Deep Doodoo

Postby bloke » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:29 am

The exit bores on some of my personal shanks are near knife-edges.
I don't supply them to customers that thin, because I don't want anyone getting cut on them, and I also don't want my customers to to have to handle them as if they are made of foil.
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