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... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby bloke » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:08 pm

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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Casca Grossa » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:34 pm

A silver, 6/4 CC tuba with MAW valves will make your air flow just fine into a really nice sound. Everybody knows that.
Last edited by Casca Grossa on Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Donn » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:34 pm

I wish brass players didn't feel the need to use analogies to the clarinet, as though 1) no one will understand what they're talking about unless they explain it in terms of how the clarinet works, and 2) they know how a clarinet works.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Schlepporello » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:54 pm

Yes.
I'm just crazy about dementia.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby basslizard » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:22 pm

I struggle with maintaining good sound through long notes, especially low. I can play to the bottom of my BBb horn’s capability, but maintaining that sound without frequent breaths is hard. My excuse is that I took a 20 year hiatus from playing, but that’s an excuse, not a good reason. I also have a tendency to mash my face into the mouthpiece.

My new mouthpiece (just arrived today!) seems to give me better control, but I had to stop playing after a minute. Yesterday I played four sets at the state volleyball tournament with the high school pep band. I split my lower lip powering through Phantom of the Opera at the request of one of the officials (we had our own cheer section), and was smashing my mouth too firmly into the mouthpiece trying to fix pitch issues that were really just a stuck third valve so my top lip is bruised and cut up from my teeth. I admit to sometimes trying to show off to try to entice a student to try playing the tuba.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby bloke » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:06 pm

~Control~ of air is one thing. It's pretty important when playing a wind instrument.
~More~ air is not (necessarily) a solution to any particular musical instrument playing problem.










"clarinets-as-percussion-instruments"...uh...I'd prefer to be around those clarinet players who make clarinets' air columns vibrate, and not attempt (as no successful clarinet players do) - in vain - to bang the reed tips against the tips of the mouthpieces (aka "squawk").
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Leland » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:51 pm

Donn wrote:I wish brass players didn't feel the need to use analogies to the clarinet, as though 1) no one will understand what they're talking about unless they explain it in terms of how the clarinet works, and 2) they know how a clarinet works.

I learned how to make enough noise on a clarinet in college to play a solo for reed techniques class.

I know how it DOESN'T work.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby imperialbari » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:00 pm

basslizard wrote:I struggle with maintaining good sound through long notes, especially low. I can play to the bottom of my BBb horn’s capability, but maintaining that sound without frequent breaths is hard. My excuse is that I took a 20 year hiatus from playing, but that’s an excuse, not a good reason. I also have a tendency to mash my face into the mouthpiece.

My new mouthpiece (just arrived today!) seems to give me better control, but I had to stop playing after a minute. Yesterday I played four sets at the state volleyball tournament with the high school pep band. I split my lower lip powering through Phantom of the Opera at the request of one of the officials (we had our own cheer section), and was smashing my mouth too firmly into the mouthpiece trying to fix pitch issues that were really just a stuck third valve so my top lip is bruised and cut up from my teeth. I admit to sometimes trying to show off to try to entice a student to try playing the tuba.


Lizards have split tongues, so you just placed your cuts the wrong place.

And then you need a Piggy to fit your nose. If you want to play loud, get one more Pignose.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby basslizard » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:47 am

The forked tongue makes it easier to play a double-reeded instrument. Pig nose not so helpful.

Donn wrote:I wish brass players didn't feel the need to use analogies to the clarinet, as though 1) no one will understand what they're talking about unless they explain it in terms of how the clarinet works, and 2) they know how a clarinet works.


Let's make it an oboe analogy then; entirely different type of breathing and support from when I play my oboe vs playing my tuba. On the oboe, the similarity is that you have to control the stream of air, quantity of air, quality of air, but it's at a much greater pressure. It's not uncommon that I have to breathe out before taking a new breath while playing the oboe, and with the tuba, it's common that I actually run out of air from trying to put too much (quantity over quality) in order to hit the lower notes.

Bloke-piece Sellmansberger mouthpiece is amazing, but very different. My articulation between notes is easier on it, depth and tone a little harder to achieve. Fairly certain this is going to come down to breathing.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Ken Herrick » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:41 am

Go to the main concept being stated: forget preconceived notions: That aint a bad post!
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby bloke » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:24 am

yes, Ken.

Which of these two (just below) is the thing that (most likely) prompts people to call me on the telephone and ask if I'm available to show up and make some specific types of sounds with some specific types of equipment?

[a] their desire for me to take deep breaths, and move some air around in their room through one of my devices
[b] their desire to hear pleasing-to-them sounds that result from the enharmonic vibration of my lips, when placed next to the small-end of one of my devices

As I believe the answer to be [b], I concentrate on [b] as my end-goal, regarding this compendium of pursuits.

I occasionally travel...sometimes for business, and sometimes for pleasure. The goal (nearly always) is one, the other, or both, but the goal is ~never~ "to see just how much gasoline I can possibly consume by placing it into my traveling device".
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby happyroman » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:01 pm

Michael Grose posts an Arnold Jacobs quote daily on his Facebook page. Here is a recent one that agrees with the linked article posted by Bloke.

When you play a brass instrument you must think buzz, buzz, buzz, and not blow, blow, blow. In a car, the engine moves the wheels. (It's not the gasoline moving the wheels). Your buzz is like the engine of the car.
---Arnold Jacobs #jakeped

https://www.facebook.com/michael.grose. ... ation=chat

When asked where he got the wind to fill that big instrument, Jake responded, "I don't fill it with wind, I fill it with vibration."

He also used to say that you could breathe perfectly and still be a lousy tuba player. The breath is important because it is the fuel source for the vibration, but the concept of how you want to sound is much more important.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Micah Everett » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:35 pm

The author of the linked article is aware of those Jacobs quotes, and of how few of his good ideas generally originated with him.

He is also aware of the tendency of analogies (to the clarinet or otherwise) to break down if overanalyzed.

:D
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Donn » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:28 pm

bloke wrote:~Control~ of air is one thing. It's pretty important when playing a wind instrument.
~More~ air is not (necessarily) a solution to any particular musical instrument playing problem.


It sure is!

Instrument playing problem: too little air for good sound?
Solution: More air!

"clarinets-as-percussion-instruments"...uh...I'd prefer to be around those clarinet players who make clarinets' air columns vibrate, and not attempt (as no successful clarinet players do) - in vain - to bang the reed tips against the tips of the mouthpieces (aka "squawk").


I prefer to be around clarinet players who would have a better idea how to play clarinet, than a tuba player would.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby bloke » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:01 pm

When I have time, Mr. Donn, I'll put some wet red nail polish on the tip of a clarinet mouthpiece and make a video of me playing a two-octave scale on a clarinet (yeah...I'll have to negotiate "the break", and I'd rather do it on a sax, but you say "clarinet", so...)
Both my brother and father were clarinetists, I took clarinet lessons in kolij, I repair clarinets, and - in another life - I taught beginner/intermediate/high school band with (yup) an OH-fishul secondary schools instrumental music teacher certificate. (I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but some of the children in school bands, usually, play the clarinet.)

1/ You can judge for yourself whether I'm absolutely the worst clarinetist who ever met a clarinet...No, I'm certainly not "good", but there are legions who are even worse.
2/ I'll show you that there's no red nail polish on the tip of the reed.
3/ Once I show you all of this, though, I will expect you to shut your pie-hole on this topic. I've told local professional single reed players what "a guy on a discussion list behind a computer in the Pacific Northwest" contends regarding single reed instrument sound generation; They all laugh.

...and - if you believe that "more air" is necessarily THE answer to most any sound production issue (and/or that it's not possible to make a really nice sound on most wind instruments with "nearly no air"), then go blow. :P

:D
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Donn » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:36 pm

If you're looking to demonstrate a beating regime on a woodwind instrument, sax would be a better choice, as it switches to that lower in the volume range than clarinet.

But it isn't really necessary, we already know at least that much about the mechanics of this system. See for example Clarinet acoustics: an introduction. Maybe your colleagues would get more chuckles if presented with information based on acoustic research. I gather it's the South we're talking about.
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby bloke » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:10 pm

Just as I suspected, you're only trolling - as usual.
I'm going to stop trolling you, because I think people are getting tired of watching us troll each other here.
Honestly, I'm getting bored with it as well...

...but that having been said, here's some more research, and - as can be seen - quite extensive indeed, and billions of dollars have been spent on it...so it is authoritative, unquestionable, and on the internet:
http://tinyurl.com/gqn5guv
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby Billy M. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:43 am

So uh, Bloke... did you happen to notice you're advocating a blog post that encourages buzzing?
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby swillafew » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:00 am

Somebody needs to write a method book for our instrument, in the worst way.

I keep wondering why nobody is shopping for a horn so they can be the next Chuck Daellenbach. He should write a method book and sell (many) thousands. I was more interested in being Roger Bobo once, but Chuck is right there with him. I wasn't brave enough to be Warren Deck.

If a younger person ever reads this, they ought be trying to be the next Carol Jantsch. Her name gets mentioned around here almost....................................................never.
MORE AIR
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Re: ... so what are you trying to accomplish?

Postby bloke » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:12 am

I "buzz" (vibrate my lips) fairly regularly...
- when hired to show up to do it
- with the mouthpiece stuck in the tuba, where it belongs

With the mouthpiece ~not~ stuck in the tuba, I doubt that I would get paid.
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