A Question on Horn Design

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MN_TimTuba

A Question on Horn Design

Post by MN_TimTuba »

Here's my issue. I play front action piston tubas, and I guess I produce plenty of moisture as I play, because I'm constantly emptying spit valves and pulling slides to dump them, and spinning my horn to drain the thing, sometimes after every song or two. My tuba buddy next to me plays a very nice Eastman rotary tuba, and everything drains from one spit valve. ONE. I'm envious of that. Therefore, my question is - why doesn't a manufacturer build a FA piston horn where all the tuning slides go up, and everything drains into one lower main tuning slide that can be drained in one fell swoop? I may be missing something obvious, and I don't mind having the obvious explained to me.

Just curious, although I'd be tempted to get one as a retirement gift to myself when I get there.

Thanks.
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by Kirley »

Checkout Kanstul tubas. All of the valve loops exit and enter the same side of the valve (like a top action horn).
I've never played one for more than a few toots so I can't speak to their water catchment but I'd guess this design should help with that.
MN_TimTuba

Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by MN_TimTuba »

[quote="KiltieTuba
On my old Holton 345 ... With fourth valve being so large, and relative unused, I usually waited until an intermission or long break in the music to empty it.[/quote].
Good point. While my 345 is in the shop I'm borrowing g a nice little King 2341, and I notice that it does need more frequent draining in all slides than my Holton. I'd still like to see a front piston horn with all tuning slides pointing up, though. Maybe someone like Jonathan at Wessex would attempt a design some day.
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by Dubby »

+1 to this. Since I sold my Tuba prior to coming to Germany, I’ve been playing on a rented Weril 3/4 BBb. This thing collects the most water of any horn I’ve ever played, especially in the second valve; and of course, there’s only an upper tuning slide and requires a bit of twirl to completely empty it.
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by humBell »

Came across a tuba with 8 water keys. I'd like to see a cable system set up such that one can open them simultaneously (pretty sure i couldn't reach them all at once, though i didn't really try so i could be wrong)

And have noticed that King 1240 collects some water in the upward facing first valve loop. It perhaps is limited to how much the turn in the piston can hold, but it can affect the tone, and it feels weird to pull the slide and turn the tuba bell downward.
Thanks for playing!
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Donn
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by Donn »

humBell wrote:And have noticed that King 1240 collects some water in the upward facing first valve loop. It perhaps is limited to how much the turn in the piston can hold, but it can affect the tone, and it feels weird to pull the slide and turn the tuba bell downward.
That was the single worst thing about my 1240. They must have done something different with the similar sousaphone valve set, can't imagine playing outdoors with that going on. But it sounds like you are somehow removing the top bend on the 1st valve loop, which isn't an option on mine.
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Dan Schultz
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by Dan Schultz »

European style tubas where the rotors lie in line on the backside of the horn are by far the most efficient for getting moisture out of the horn... normally with only one water key just before the main slide.

Piston horns have more 'twist and turns' getting through the valve section and gives the airstream more time to cool and condense the 98.6 degree/100% humid air we blow through them.

I've added waterkeys to many horns for customers but as far as my personal horns go... I've found that once you study where water tends to collect... the easiest way to get rid of it through one waterkey is to simply rock the horn back and forth is a specific pattern while in my lap.

The 'slant-rotor' Marzan tubas present the biggest problem I've ever had to deal with. As much as I love these horns... you simply cannot add enough waterkeys to make things simple. I feel like an F Horn player when using one of these horns. Pulling and dumping slides seems like the best way.
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by joh_tuba »

Kirley wrote:Checkout Kanstul tubas. All of the valve loops exit and enter the same side of the valve (like a top action horn).
I've never played one for more than a few toots so I can't speak to their water catchment but I'd guess this design should help with that.
The Kanstul design, while perfectly fine, is obviously a cost cutting decision rather than an intentional 'feature'.

Engineering a whole new valve block is expensive.
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windshieldbug
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by windshieldbug »

Dan Schultz wrote: The 'slant-rotor' Marzan tubas present the biggest problem I've ever had to deal with. As much as I love these horns... you simply cannot add enough waterkeys to make things simple. I feel like an F Horn player when using one of these horns. Pulling and dumping slides seems like the best way.

I feel exactly the opposite way... I filled in the water key by the valves and just tilt the horn down and pull the tuning slide- with the valves depressed all the water runs downhill through the valves and out the open slide without any need to blow through the horn. The one exception is the fourth valve tubing and in the rare time water gets trapped in that extra loop that bow has it’s own water key!
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
MN_TimTuba

Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by MN_TimTuba »

[quote="bloke"

Please don't interpret as "rude"...This is all (simply) matter-of-fact, and tone-of-voice/facial-expressions are not conveyed with typed words.

Happy Thanksgiving, and good luck with the water problems.[/quote]

Joe, ha! No, I don't take your instruction as rude at all. I was very much hoping that you or another experienced horn technician (thanks, Dan) would weigh in, and I appreciate your tips and insight. If I can't just press one water key, then adding more to nix the spin makes sense. We'll see how it goes after I get reacquainted with my horn when it is finished (shortly, I'm led to believe...). If water keys can be added quicker than dent removal then it would be a valid summer project.
Thanks, all, for the replies. Happy Thanksgiving to the lot of you.
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Dan Schultz
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by Dan Schultz »

windshieldbug wrote:
Dan Schultz wrote: The 'slant-rotor' Marzan tubas present the biggest problem I've ever had to deal with. As much as I love these horns... you simply cannot add enough waterkeys to make things simple. I feel like an F Horn player when using one of these horns. Pulling and dumping slides seems like the best way.

I feel exactly the opposite way... I filled in the water key by the valves and just tilt the horn down and pull the tuning slide- with the valves depressed all the water runs downhill through the valves and out the open slide without any need to blow through the horn. The one exception is the fourth valve tubing and in the rare time water gets trapped in that extra loop that bow has it’s own water key!
Isn't yours a CC?
Dan Schultz
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Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
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windshieldbug
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by windshieldbug »

Dan Schultz wrote: Isn't yours a CC?

Yes. Slant-rotor CC.
One quick tilt and most of it's done.
No blowing, and the tilt is behind (or on :twisted: ) the violas...
Last edited by windshieldbug on Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Question on Horn Design

Post by pjv »

I've often wondered this myself, especially since I live in an area which is often cold and humid. For this very reason I've often brought my B&S Symphonie and not my Kanstul 90.

So no, the Kanstul design doesn't alleviate this problem, but I can get all the water in one movement into the main slide by tilting the horn to the right then returning it to a playing postion with the valves pressed. But even using the three water keys available it is, for my taste, a lot of keys that need to be pressed, often on the fly when there's no time for this. Because of this and where I live it has seriously influenced my choice of instruments, as I already mentioned.

Not all rotary horns are set up so nicely as others. Cerveny 4th valve slides go both ways, so you have to dump your slides with a turn to the right and the left.
As well many rotary horns collect water in the lead pipe (Alexander, Cerveny, etc) because it goes upwards after the receiver.

I believe Matt Walters did some custom piston tuba rerouting, putting the valve section lower on the horn (ah, what a pleasure not to have to play with your wrist at a 90 degree angle!!). I just can't remember if he re-routed his tubing in such a way that the horn drained any better.
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